soliciting with intent.....

[caz]

... so, what "trade" exactly would happen to be passing such places at between 1:40 and 5:25 in the morning, Caz? Was there late night shopping for Yom Kippur, to which outsiders flocked in their droves? Can't see it, somehow

Er, sorry, Sam, but you've marched way ahead of me. I was merely responding to what Philip said about the prostitutes in such places getting 'a lot of passing trade'. They either did or they didn't. How is the time of day relevant to that question, and the scepticism seen lately concerning the basic ability of the average Spitalfields prostitute (as opposed to the odd shuffling vagrant still hoping for a handout in the run up to dawn) to do much trade at all - night or day - with men who weren't shiftless, semi-criminal denizens of the mean streets themselves?

I'd rather walk first, before running with you right off topic.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jon Guy]

Hi Sam

The following was taken from the Echo, 10 August 1888

It now appears that on the night of Bank Holiday there were several soldiers in the neighbourhood, some of whom were seen drinking in the Princess Alice-two minutes' walk from George-yard-buildings-and other taverns near.

[Jon Guy]

I agree with what you say, Sam, however, I was looking, as per the premise of the thread, at an example of who may have been in the vicinity of St Botolphs in the early hours, drunk and looking for a companion. I am not suggesting a soldier was responsible for all or any of the murders.

Out of all the Whitechapel murders we can only place Eddowes and Tabram in that area and at that time prior to their deaths.

[Sam Flynn]

Perhaps, Jon - although it's still a question of how frequently this happened and the number of people involved. This, then, translates into a question of supply and demand. Remember that even the younger unfortunates of Miller's Court seemed to flit in and out, apparently with little success - until 3AM. At least, such seems to have been the case on the night of Kelly's death. Likewise Nichols and Chapman were wandering about practically all night - again, seemingly with little success.

I get the distinct impression that, possibly not more than an hour after the pubs had shut, we're talking about the "bottom end" of the market - casual prostitutes with the occasional straggler propositioning them.

[Jon Guy]

In that specific instance, don't forget, they'd picked up with their "prozzies" earlier in the evening, and stayed with them on a pub-crawl. It's not as if they'd wandered into town on the off-chance in the small hours.

Hi Sam

Poll and Martha picked up with two soldiers at 10.00 pm and they seperated into pairs at 11.45 pm.

There is nothing to suggest that the soldier seen waiting for his mate by P.C.Barrett at 2.00 am had anything to do with the soldier who walked up George Yard two hours earlier.

Judging by the I.D. parades at the Tower, and the Wellington Barracks, there was obviously the possibilty of two regiments visiting the area. Solidiers were on leave and within walking distance.

After 2.00 am there were still soldiers wandering around drunk, and they would soon be returning in the direction of St Botolphs/Aldgate.

[Nothing to see]

Well, I'm sure you have the final word on the question.

[Sam Flynn]

There was certainly a potential custombase at that time of night, in that part of town, and they were the soldiers that we know drank on the High St and were still hanging around that area at 02.00 am.

Outside the Tabram case, I'm not sure that I know about that, Jon. In that specific instance, don't forget, they'd picked up with their "prozzies" earlier in the evening, and stayed with them on a pub-crawl. It's not as if they'd wandered into town on the off-chance in the small hours.

[Jon Guy]

In other words, how many people had any business being there at those various times of the night?

Hi Sam

There was certainly a potential custombase at that time of night, in that part of town, and they were the soldiers that we know drank on the High St and were still hanging around that area at 02.00 am.

[Sam Flynn]

Bakers would be working. Thieves would be working. Nightmen would be working.

I'm not disputing any of that, Mike - although the conditions under which they worked might have prevented many of them from sauntering out for a shag - but they'd be primarily local artisans, almost by definition, and small in number. The idea that (e.g.) St Botolph's or Leman Street would be a-swarm with sex tourists after 1:30 in the morning is almost certainly misplaced. That you'd find the occasional "contingent" prostitute (by which I mean women with money and/or accommodation problems) serving casual, local trade, is probable - but that's not the mental picture beloved of Hollywood (and some Ripperologists) by a country mile.

[The Good Michael]

Bakers would be working. Thieves would be working. Nightmen would be working.

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

the evidence that men were out very late at night is borne out by the fact that the Unfortunates in question, or some of them, were supposedly still working when they meet their killer after midnight.

But they weren't "working" in the true sense of the word, Mike. They were, in the main, the dregs that had been turfed out of their lodging-houses (or police cells) in the small hours. If this weren't the case, I'm pretty certain that Jack would have struck lucky at earlier hours of the night than he did with Nichols, Chapman and Kelly. Or Tabram, Nichols and Chapman - for those of that school of thought. He may well also have claimed victims other than Eddowes and Stride - otherwise, they were the unluckiest of the "several" (not?) unfortunates on "duty" at the time.

I get your point Sam, but I think we have evidence that Slaughterhouse men were working, Diemshutz is apparently just returning after a brief stop from the market at 1:00am, Butchers I understand had to have their wares cut and portioned by 6am,...in these cases youve got vigilantees and police patrols, .....maybe shift work men still out carousing after midnight, people in port for the weekend, military men on leave, .......lets put it this way,......the evidence that men were out very late at night is borne out by the fact that the Unfortunates in question, or some of them, were supposedly still working when they meet their killer after midnight.

I dont think they serviced each other. ...and even if they did, they were probably both broke.

Best regards Sam

[Sam Flynn]

Not directed at me, but you would have Butchers, Slaughterhouse men, people going to set up for Market

Do we know that, Mike? At 1:40, 3:30 for example? Ripperology is sufficiently well-blessed with "would-haves", methinks

, goods leaving the docks

Mayhap... although there again, I'm not so sure that they worked 24/7 down there. Not that it matters, because the docks were some distance away, and well out of the "killing-zone". Rather, they were close to potential "killing-zones" of their own - for Poplar, Limehouse and Ratcliff weren't exactly bereft of prostitutes.

I would think the main thoroughfares probably saw some kind of traffic all night long...including foot traffic.

Indeed - however, the salient point is how many of those feet would have been from outside the district? In other words, how many people had any business being there at those various times of the night?

... so, what "trade" exactly would happen to be passing such places at between 1:40 and 5:25 in the morning, Caz? Was there late night shopping for Yom Kippur, to which outsiders flocked in their droves? Can't see it, somehow

Hi Sam,

Not directed at me, but you would have Butchers, Slaughterhouse men, people going to set up for Market, goods leaving the docks, ...I would think the main thoroughfares probably saw some kind of traffic all night long...including foot traffic.

Best regards SF

[Sam Flynn]

Not according to the tiny clutch of posters that has sprung up in recent times, who believe this to be a total myth, and an East End prostitute would have the devil's own job persuading any such passing trade off a major city thoroughfare and into the nearby mean streets for an ultra cheap quickie.

Just didn't happen, apparently.

... so, what "trade" exactly would happen to be passing such places at between 1:40 and 5:25 in the morning, Caz? Was there late night shopping for Yom Kippur, to which outsiders flocked in their droves? Can't see it, somehow