Ben,
I understand from many sources,including Jerry White and Iain Sinclair both of whom have wrtten on the East End---Jerry White very extensively, that Bill Fishman is considered a foremost authority,if not THE foremost authority, on the East End.
Not only is he a distinguished academic,he was born and bred in Whitechapel,the son of an immigrant Jewish Taylor and he conducted many highly commended "East End Walks" over the years in Whitechapel and Spitalfields-though they were not "Jack the Ripper" walks -mostly being concerned with the socio-economic background and history of Whitechapel for his students .
It seems no matter who is found you will immediately find fault and swear black is white.
Ragarding the dictionary definition [Longmans]of the word "BUCK" it means
[old informal usage- especially in 19th century England --this as clearly intended by Fishman]
A FINE, GAY, WELL DRESSED MAN
Regarding the word "West" in this context ,Fishman, a man born and bred in East London and therefore an "East Londoner", is intending you to understand that he is referring to the more prosperous "West " London--most definitely ,NOT "suburban" London !
You need to know the jargon Ben,you need to know London too -it would seem in this particular case .
Anyhow I have another quote,this time from A.N.Wilson in his book entitled,"The Victorians":
"Those who penetrated the East End could discover that it was indeed one of the roughest and most exotic ports in the World,where a prodigious mixture of races and cultures could be glimpsed.......................
..................The enchantment of the alien,the half thrilling terror of violence lurking in the "hell holes",the cheap excitement of knowing that "scores of such women"[he is referring to the female habitues -of vice-in dance halls and music halls-the chapter discusses Marie Lloyd and her East End beginnings-not in any way implying Marie herself was a prostitute,she was not,but the music halls had notorious "bars" at the back where women hung out to pick up men -as it was usual for them to dance in the pubs etc].
Incidently ,in the same chapter, he discusses the attraction of "the rough" for men like Max Beerholm or TS Eliot to frequent East End Halls where there was also an element of excitement---Wilson calls it "tasting a bit of rough".He adds,"It was the secular equivalent of those who came out of their cabs and carriages to "savour the exotic delights of ritualistic worship of "slum" churches.
Anyway,Ben,I really dont want to have much more to do with this thread.It has seemed to me a very hostile venue from the start .
Finally I dont think the complete lack of rapport between Claire and myself is any of your business.
Cheers
Norma
I understand from many sources,including Jerry White and Iain Sinclair both of whom have wrtten on the East End---Jerry White very extensively, that Bill Fishman is considered a foremost authority,if not THE foremost authority, on the East End.
Not only is he a distinguished academic,he was born and bred in Whitechapel,the son of an immigrant Jewish Taylor and he conducted many highly commended "East End Walks" over the years in Whitechapel and Spitalfields-though they were not "Jack the Ripper" walks -mostly being concerned with the socio-economic background and history of Whitechapel for his students .
It seems no matter who is found you will immediately find fault and swear black is white.
Ragarding the dictionary definition [Longmans]of the word "BUCK" it means
[old informal usage- especially in 19th century England --this as clearly intended by Fishman]
A FINE, GAY, WELL DRESSED MAN
Regarding the word "West" in this context ,Fishman, a man born and bred in East London and therefore an "East Londoner", is intending you to understand that he is referring to the more prosperous "West " London--most definitely ,NOT "suburban" London !
You need to know the jargon Ben,you need to know London too -it would seem in this particular case .
Anyhow I have another quote,this time from A.N.Wilson in his book entitled,"The Victorians":
"Those who penetrated the East End could discover that it was indeed one of the roughest and most exotic ports in the World,where a prodigious mixture of races and cultures could be glimpsed.......................
..................The enchantment of the alien,the half thrilling terror of violence lurking in the "hell holes",the cheap excitement of knowing that "scores of such women"[he is referring to the female habitues -of vice-in dance halls and music halls-the chapter discusses Marie Lloyd and her East End beginnings-not in any way implying Marie herself was a prostitute,she was not,but the music halls had notorious "bars" at the back where women hung out to pick up men -as it was usual for them to dance in the pubs etc].
Incidently ,in the same chapter, he discusses the attraction of "the rough" for men like Max Beerholm or TS Eliot to frequent East End Halls where there was also an element of excitement---Wilson calls it "tasting a bit of rough".He adds,"It was the secular equivalent of those who came out of their cabs and carriages to "savour the exotic delights of ritualistic worship of "slum" churches.
Anyway,Ben,I really dont want to have much more to do with this thread.It has seemed to me a very hostile venue from the start .
Finally I dont think the complete lack of rapport between Claire and myself is any of your business.
Cheers
Norma
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