Toffs in Spitalfields

[Natalie Severn]

This sounds familiar...

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...0464#post60464

I just enjoyed it!

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Nats,

But thats not the point he is making Ben.Its your intransigence and black and white dogma about dress code and who wore what that is in question.

It has rather more to do with the affordability of such attire in an area where, for many, sartorial elegance might be defined as having matching bootlaces. It also has rather more to do with the foolhardiness of anyone wandering around such a badly-reputed, criminal milieu with their jewellery on display... much like a baboon flashing his arse, come to think of it.

[Natalie Severn]

Nobody liked flashing his jewellry more than Tumblety Sam----and it made flashing his arse even more fun

[Sam Flynn]

Nobody liked flashing his jewellry more than Tumblety

... in Whitechapel?

[Natalie Severn]

... in Whitechapel?

......... very likely Sam -since he cruised all over the place and admitted he"d been in Whitechapel at the time of the murders !He even tried it on with the police didn"t you know-hey-he skipped free too after flashing those rings ----and things---in the cells!
[psst the police probably heaved such a sigh of relief]

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

Most butchers and tailors probably would not have dressed flashily but some might and some of their apprentices might have too

Might have done, but very probably didn't, for reasons discussed in this thread ad nauseam. No, it isn't "very likely" that Tumblety flashed his jewellry in Whitechapel. In fact, we've learned from recent research that Tumblety dressed down for that purpose - certainly he wasn't dressed in a conspicuous manner when interviewed for the article located by RJP.

You were uncharacteristically impolite to Claire there, Norma, and it certainly didn't help that you were appropriating other people's put-downs.

Regards,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,



Might have done, but very probably didn't, for reasons discussed in this thread ad nauseam. No, it isn't "very likely" that Tumblety flashed his jewellry in Whitechapel. In fact, we've learned from recent research that Tumblety dressed down for that purpose - certainly he wasn't dressed in a conspicuous manner when interviewed for the article located by RJP.

You were uncharacteristically impolite to Claire there, Norma, and it certainly didn't help that you were appropriating other people's put-downs.

Regards,
Ben

Actually Ben,Tumblety was arrested in the East End on a charge of Gross indecency involving four men on 7th November 1888[these indecent activities had gone on between 27th July ie ten days before Martha Tabram was murdered-and2 November.On 12th November he was charged in connection with the Whitechapel murders,dates that suggest Tumblety was at liberty post 7th November and could,in point of fact,have murdered Mary Kelly.
While in the police cells he did a performance-flashing his jewellry -some of his rings,to be exact. He was known for dressing dramatically,using disguises,having a large curled up moustache.It is also now known he was in Whitechapel actually visiting murder sites during the course of the murders---just like everybody else-so he said.Where on earth did you ever see sight of something saying Tumblety ever "dressed down"-even in Whitechapel?Every other account has him dressing to the nines!

I am not interested in talking to people trying to be clever for the hell of it, Ben.Discuss the case or dont bother.
You dont like what I say---tough ---- I dont like the way you talk to me sometimes as a matter of a fact-or the horrible way Sam insults the memory of the murder victims -talking about the effects of their poverty in gross terms about their breasts,stench or any other insult he throws out.

Norma

[Ben]

Where on earth did you ever see sight of something saying Tumblety ever "dressed down"-even in Whitechapel?Every other account has him dressing to the nines!

In the article you referenced earlier, Norma.

When he was interviewed for the article in which he mentioned visiting Whitechapel at the time of the murders, he wasn't dressed in a remotely conspicuous fashion, with the obvious exception of his elaborate moustache. Certainly no gold chains or medals on that occasion. It isn't "known" that he visited Whitechapel during the murders - that is simply what he claimed. Incidentally, could you refresh my memory about him being arrested for gross indecency in the East End? Not doubting you for a moment, but a reminder would be appreciated.

I think you've greatly misinterpreted the nature of Gareth's observations.

[Natalie Severn]

In the article you referenced earlier, Norma.

When he was interviewed for the article in which he mentioned visiting Whitechapel at the time of the murders, he wasn't dressed in a remotely conspicuous fashion, with the obvious exception of his elaborate moustache. Certainly no gold chains or medals on that occasion. It isn't "known" that he visited Whitechapel during the murders - that is simply what he claimed. Incidentally, could you refresh my memory about him being arrested for gross indecency in the East End? Not doubting you for a moment, but a reminder would be appreciated.

I think you've greatly misinterpreted the nature of Gareth's observations.

Well ofcourse he wasnt dressed to the nines for that interview-the American Press had been broadcasting all over that he had been followed by detectives from England as the suspected Whitechapel murderer.He probably dressed in as normal and respectable manner as possible to divert further finger pointing!
But anyone who knows anything at all about Tumblety knows he was a very flash dresser indeed as a rule.

I have just quoted from Paul Begg here -3rd para page 279, The Definitive History.
There are many sources of such information on Tumblety .

I dont think I have misinterpreted Sam"s phraseology at all ---go look up just one example describing these women"s bodies and posted only yesterday and questioned by RJ Palmer-it was one of several very offensive labels about these women- in fact Miss Marple made similar type of comments about them on the thread yesterday .But Sam has taken to employing such descriptions quite freely of late. and I do actually find such terms horrible.

[Sam Flynn]

But Sam has taken to employing such descriptions quite freely of late. and I do actually find such terms horrible.

... what are you going on about?

[Ben]

He probably dressed in as normal and respectable manner as possible to divert further finger pointing!

Yes, and he probably dressed in as normal and respectable a manner as possible when venturing into one of the worst districts in the East End of London; a district known for it's vicious, semi-criminal element along with an active serial killer. Tumblety intimated himself that his arrest may have had something to do with the fact that he wore a "slouch hat", and there was nothing toffy about that headgear or any clothing that went with it. Arguing that Tumblety must have paraded his opulence around the East End only makes him appear a less plausible suspect than he is already, but I don't believe he did for one moment.

Any luck with that source re. Tumblety being arrested for gross indecency in the East End?

Cheers.
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

... what are you going on about?

Written by Sam to RJ Palmer-two days ago

"He might have cared to find a woman who didnt stink of God knows what,who ran a better than 50:50 chance of tripping over her own tits"




Written by Miss Marple-same day



"........drunk middle aged hag who probably had fleas and possibly lice"



There are ways and ways of expressing such opinions of the women who were slaughtered by Jack the Ripper.To speak of the class of victims who were murdered ,in terms such as this, defines them as not worthy of respect.It relegates them as some horrible"sub species"of humanity.



Argue it as you will,I find such descriptions very offensive. and many others would too.

[Natalie Severn]

Yes, and he probably dressed in as normal and respectable a manner as possible when venturing into one of the worst districts in the East End of London; a district known for it's vicious, semi-criminal element along with an active serial killer. Tumblety intimated himself that his arrest may have had something to do with the fact that he wore a "slouch hat", and there was nothing toffy about that headgear or any clothing that went with it. Arguing that Tumblety must have paraded his opulence around the East End only makes him appear a less plausible suspect than he is already, but I don't believe he did for one moment.

Any luck with that source re. Tumblety being arrested for gross indecency in the East End?

Cheers.
Ben

So you are saying such a man as the famously "flashily dressed " Tumblety would go on the pull to procure a Whitechapel Prostitute in order to murder her[his knife at the ready and probably tucked just below his rib cage ]as a "dressed down" punter wearing the very same clothing as he did when protesting his innocence to reporters?

[Natalie Severn]

er......Ben------but I have already given you the source ----just read it- posted at 2.29 ok?


My husband has another source which was at hand until a few minutes ago - its in Stewart Evans Source book----but he has gone to bed----the Paul Begg one should suffice----see you tomorrow!
Nightie Night chaps.

[Ben]

Tumblety would go on the pull to procure a Whitechapel Prostitute in order to murder her[his knife at the ready and probably tucked just below his rib cage ]as a "dressed down" punter wearing the very same clothing as he did when protesting his innocence to reporters?

No, I'm saying Tumblety probably never procured any Whitechapel prostitutes in his life, let alone killed any, and if he did either of those things, he probably dressed in a fashion similiar to the way in which he dressed for that interview rather than sauntering into Whitechapel on his white horse wearing his medals and assorted bling, with dogs in tow.