Toffs in Spitalfields

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks John, Nats... but were they actually resident there, and - if so - did they go out a-wenching after dark? Plus, these were locally-based philanthropic charity workers - not Timon the Totty-Tourist from Teddington.

Sorry to bang on about "specifics", but it's essential. To think otherwise would be like looking at a painting of a Scutari hospital and concluding that significant numbers of women in the Crimean Peninsula dressed as nurses; furthermore, that they made a habit of clambering into the hills of an evening looking for sex with local men.

[John Bennett]

Thanks John, Nats... but were they actually resident there, and - if so - did they go out a-wenching after dark? Plus, these were locally-based philanthropic charity workers - not Timon the Totty-Tourist from Teddington.

Fair comment Sam.

George Yard Buildings were taken over by Toynbee to provide accommodation for the Oxbridge students who came to the East End to do their philanthropic bit in the East End, so the answer to your first question is yes, they were certainly resident.

As to the possiblility of them going 'a-wenching' after dark, I am not in a position to say!!

[Ben]

Plus, these were locally-based philanthropic charity workers - not Timon the Totty-Tourist from Teddington.

Exactly, Gareth.

Whenever we encounter any references to outsiders from a superior class to that of the populace (i.e. not necessarily "toffs") visiting the area, they're generally drawn there because of the poverty and crime that ran rampant throughout the district, just like you get modern-day celebrities visiting Africa to highlight the plight of the starving on Red Nose Day. That doesn't make these poverty-stricken locations the popular resort of the monied or well-connected.

Best regards,
Ben

P.S. Dunno about anybody else, but I can see myself tiring very quickly with the expression "toff". It's misleading and irritating.

[Roy Corduroy]

-- what was the nearest underground station--

LadyG, there was a station at the site of the Nichols murder - Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

Oh and credit where it is due. The photo is by Rob House and it appeared in "Escape from Bucks Row" in Ripperologist #94, Aug 08 by Chris George, assisted by Rob and others. An interesting article, by the way, which helped me understand that place.

Hope you don't mind me posting it here, Rob. It's a good un'.

Roy

[protohistorian]

Exactly, Gareth.

Whenever we encounter any references to outsiders from a superior class to that of the populace (i.e. not necessarily "toffs") visiting the area, they're generally drawn there because of the poverty and crime that ran rampant throughout the district, just like you get modern-day celebrities visiting Africa to highlight the plight of the starving on Red Nose Day. That doesn't make these poverty-stricken locations the popular resort of the monied or well-connected.

Best regards,
Ben

P.S. Dunno about anybody else, but I can see myself tiring very quickly with the expression "toff". It's misleading and irritating.

One of the dictionaries here at university is from 1905, and it defines toff as someone with the appearence of a university student. This could be young, somewhat monied, aloof, just about anything. Lets hear one for the half baked educational system in America though.....like the have not printed dictionaries in the interveening 104 years.

[Stewart P Evans]

A Toff

From a dictionary of slang and colloquial English of over 100 years ago -



A 'toft' was 'a showy individual' or 'a swell'. A 'tuft' was a young nobleman so named because students of rank formerly wore a gold tuft or tassle in their cap. The beard known as an 'imperial' was also referred to as a 'tuft.'

[Ben]

Thankyou, gentleman.

In which case, I'd say that very few of the residents of Toynbee Hall residents ought to be described as "toffs".

Regards,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks John and Roy for these really great pictures-the one of Durward Street is unusually informative-I had never seen it before but it gives still another perspective on the possible escape routes the ripper used---the Nichols murder is the one that astonishes me most in that he seemed to be operating in between two police beats less than 15 minutes apart.However ,seeing where the railway ran you realise he could have got away via the railway embankment quite easily.
Thanks Stewart for that priceless definition ! Proto Historian-your definition tallies with my dictionary definition reasonably well-viz "a well dressed person of high social rank".Almost all of these worthy chaps at Toynbee were undoubtedly from the upper middle and upper classes -they were the only people around after all who were able to afford to send their son"s to these exclusive universities,therefore "common usage "certainly would allow us the term "toffs" but using the term in the sense of Stewart"s strict dictionary definition clearly doesnt match the shabby genteel apparel we see the graduates wearing in the photo John posted.
Returning to Sam"s point,I dont think I ever argued that "Commercial Street" itself was teeming with toffs.All I argued originally was that a man bedecked as George Hutchinson described might well have been where he said he was, looking for a Mary Kelly type girl on the Commercial Street at 2am after a skinful of brandy.Abberline clearly thought so which is why the account has come down to us,and Abberline must have known the types who came to the East End of 1888 better than any of us do after all.

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

All I argued originally was that a man bedecked as George Hutchinson described might well have been where he said he was, looking for a Mary Kelly type girl on the Commercial Street at 2am after a skinful of brandy.

I know you've argued that, but nothing to have emerged from this discussion has done anything to bolster the likelihood of such an occurance, and there are plenty of indications against it. All we have evidence for is a few better-educated and philanthropically-minded people living in Toynbee Hall who weren't toffs, and who almost certainly never flashed their wealth in one of the worst slums in the district. That's a far cry from flashy dandies using the East End as an ideal spot for sex tourism at the height of the ripper murders, at a time when anyone remotely out-of-place was liable to attract unwanted attention.

Abberline clearly thought so which is why the account has come down to us,and Abberline must have known the types who came to the East End of 1888 better than any of us do after all

Abberline believed him initially, but the indications are that the account was subsequently discredited, and judging from his 1903 Pall Mall Gazzette interview it would seem that Abberline himself was one of the "discreditors". But even setting that aside, we must remember that Abberline's belief in Hutchinson's professed reason for monitering the court for so long was based on the tremendous oddity of a man attired like Mr. Astrakhan being seen in that locality and with that company.

Take away that "novelty" factor, and Abberline's justfication for accepting Hutchinson's alleged motivation for his 45-minute vigil is completely nullified.

Best regards,
Ben

[Jez]

Well, that's that then. Ben has decided that not a single Toff is likely to have walked up Commercial Street during the 1880's in the early hours of the morning. It was virtually impossible for a well-dressed man to do so. Even with a sharp knife. It must have been a friend of Kelly's then.

[Ben]

Well no, that would be a pretty gauche misreading of my position on that subject, Jez. I haven't "decided" anything beyond what the evidence suggests to be a reasonable conclusion, and a reasonable conclusion in this case would be that toffs were unlikely to saunter alone into a location well known as one of the worst slum areas in Whitechapel at a time when a serial killer was active in the district, blinged up to the bollocks in expensive clothes, tightly grapsed parcels and thick gold chains, especially when the generic black bag wielding foreign outsider with medical knowledge had already become the popular "scapegoat".

It must have been a friend of Kelly's then.

Or maybe - just maybe - it was fabrication.

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
Philip Sugden comments in his book," The Complete History of JtR",that Levishon spoke of George Chapman as having a "penchant for flashy dressing even in the early days of their acquaintanship"--which suggested to Sugden that Chapman was not the impoverished immigrant many of his compatriots were and that his height,build, colouring and his moustache curled up at the ends corresponded in many details to Hutchinson"s description.Abberline was also very taken with the trial reports that emerged during Chapman"s trial for murder,that in the 1880"s he had always worn a P & O hat of the kind described by certain JtR witnesses [Lawende?]and carried a "black bag" which actually can still be seen at Kew in the Police Files that have come down to us.Chapman certainly knew the Commercial Street -he even lived there at one point.

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

Klosowski did not develop a penchant for flashy dressing until Levisshon relocated him after his visit to America, which was in Tottenham High Road in 1895, if memory serves. There is no evidence that Kloswoski dressed in a remotely flashy fashion in 1887 or 1888, and the chances are strong that an impoverished immigrant such as he was not in a financial position to start parading bling around at that stage - nowhere near.

Nor is there any evidence that Klowoski could speak English at that stage, and indeed, very compelling evidence that he could not. Levisshan said of his encounter with Klosowski in 1895 that "he could speak English then" (I believe that's verbatim) whereas previously he spoke Polish and Yiddish.

On two crucial counts then, a comparison between Klosowski and Astrakhan is rendered virtually impossible, even disregarding the very strong probability that the latter was a fabrication anyway. The witnesses who mentioned P&O caps didn't describe anyone who looked like Klosowski, who had not "always worn one", incidentally. More likely, his penchant for sailor hats coincided with his move to the seaside town of Hastings, which was after the JTR murders.

A "black bag" is obviously irrelevent in the absence of any vaguely decent reason to think that JTR carried one or ever owned one.

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
I believe Philip Sugden actually used Chapman"s "1903 trial transcripts" and that this remark might well have been made under oath by the witness re the "flashy dresser" phrase.But I must admit I haven"t looked up his notes yet though I am pretty sure Sugden gives sources for most of what he claims in his book---he is a particularly rigorous researcher being an academic .
Bear in mind too that Chapman"s parents in Poland were able to afford to apprentice him from the age of 15 in 1880 until age 20 in 1885 to a Senior Surgeon.There is also actually a copy of the fees Chapman himself paid for his "Practical Surgery Course"[which followed on from the 5 year apprenticeship] at the Hospital in the city of Warsaw- Sugden- "the Complete Jtr".
Finally Sugden"s research pointed to it being very unlikely that Chapman was ever an "impoverished immigrant"------!!!He points out that he was soon able to set himself up with his own business in the latter part of 1888 with a Barber"s Shop in Cable Street.