1911 census

[Robert]

It's very frustrating!

[Mike Covell]

I know how you feel,

I bought my credits and tried the following but got no results,
Roslyn Donston
Rosyln D'Onston
Roslyn Douston
Rosyln D'Ouston
Robert Donston
Robert D'Onston
Robert Stephenson
Robert Donston Stephenson
Robert D'Onston Stephenson
Robert Doodly doo and the Stephenettes

and not a thing!!

[Robert]

Meanwhile the Irish National Archives seem to have their 1911 census online for free!

[Mike Covell]

Robert D'Onston Stephenson found in the 1911 Census, with help from Chris Scott, and the transcription is quite different from the image, which offers tantalising views on Stephenson's marital status!!

Thanks Chris, you have made a Hull man very happy (and that doesn't happen very often!)

[m_w_r]

Proposal

Hi chaps -

A little late-night initiative.

What are the legalities, or the ethics, of having a "1911 Census Image Swap Group" here on Casebook?

At the moment, 1911 census images are quite expensive (up to £3.60 each, depending on the number of credits you buy). But we don't all have to buy all of them.

Mike has already kindly offered to forward his 1911 Stephenson image to interested parties on another thread. I'm quite happy to buy, let's say, an Abberline (he's on there), and provided that Mike's happy to do it, swap my Abberline for his Stephenson. We now each have two images; we have each only paid for one. And so it goes on, if more people join in.

I could set up another thread so that people can post up what they've got (ie, Mike says, "I've got R.D. Stephenson", and I say, "I've got F.G. Abberline") and then interested parties simply PM the person holding the image they're keen on, and offer a swap with the image they themselves have bought. It seems like a simple way of building up a collection for the total outlay of £3.60 per person.

I am consulting on this before I take any action. What potential problems could arise? Is it a terrible idea, unworkable, prone to end in fearful internal disputes, or liable to end up with someone in court? I am happy to take on board any opinions, and we can proceed from there.

Regards,

Mark

[Robert]

Hi Mark

The idea of researchers pooling their info seems fine to me. The problem arises in the course of searching for an image. Although the images we want cost £X per image, it will often be necessary to spend much more than that as one weeds out mistranscriptions.

[Chris]

The idea of researchers pooling their info seems fine to me. The problem arises in the course of searching for an image. Although the images we want cost £X per image, it will often be necessary to spend much more than that as one weeds out mistranscriptions.

The combination of having to specify a surname and not being able to use wildcards - and therefore having to specify exactly the surname transcribed (or mistranscribed) is going to leave a lot of entries unfindable in practice. As they have said some search features will be disabled until the initial surge in demand is over, I'd hope that wouldn't be a long-term problem.

Regarding pricing, according to online discussions the 1911 census is going to be included in "Find My Past's" flat rate subscription services some time later this year (and apparently the company's contract gives it exclusive rights only for 6 months - though if a rival had to rescan and retranscribe all the records that would obviously take much longer than 6 months). So for searches that can wait a few months, it may be a better option to wait until that happens.

On pooling information, why not set up a thread for the posting of people's own transcripts of relevant entries (or links to same on more relevant threads)? I don't think there could be any copyright objection to that. If it were important to people to see the images of the original records, they could contact the poster privately with a request.

[Robert]

Yes Chris, I included the surname issue in the list of suggested improvements I sent them.

Regarding copyright, I am still bamboozled at the way in which census information which belongs to everybody has somehow become "Crown" copyright or some private company's copyright etc etc.

We need Dan Norder on this one - he was always good on copyright matters.

[Chris]

We need Dan Norder on this one - he was always good on copyright matters.

I'm not sure why you think that. I had to point out to him several times what the law was on copyright in unpublished manuscript material, and he simply refused to accept it!

[Chris]

Just in case anyone is concerned that publishing their own transcript of a census entry may involve a breach of copyright, here is the guidance from the National Archives on the waiver of crown copyright:
"Since 1999, Crown copyright has been waived (set aside) in the contents of most unpublished public records that we hold. You can index, transcribe (put into writing), publish and broadcast the contents of crown copyright material and material that is not in copyright without needing formal permission, having to pay a copyright fee or acknowledging copyright (on the material itself). You can use the material in an exhibition or lecture. You should acknowledge the fact that we hold the original document, and give the archive reference..."

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/legal/pdf/copyright_summary.pdf

[Robert]

I have Kate Cutbush for 1911, if anyone wants the original. The actual page is a bit of a puzzle with red ink intruding, but I can transcribe it.

I think that personally I'm inclined to wait till the thing becomes part of their subscription package, then sign up for that and probably dump Ancestry. I've actually grown a beard waiting for Ancestry searches to load.

[Chris Scott]

Hi guys
I am drawing up a "hit list" of those I want to track down in 1911
Any more to add??

1911 "Hit list"

Roslyn D'Onston (found by Mike C)
Joseph Barnett
Joseph Fleming
Aaron Kosminski
Fred Abberline
John McCarthy
Israel Schwartz
George Hutchinson
Joseph Lawende

Of these only the following seem certain so far:
HOUSEHOLD BARNETT JOSEPH M 1858 53 St George in the East London
HOUSEHOLD ABBERLINE FREDERICK GEORGE M 1843 68 Christchurch Hampshire

[Robert]

Hi Chris S

How about Isaac Kosminski? Also Levy, Ostrog and Pizer.

[Chris]

Hi guys
I am drawing up a "hit list" of those I want to track down in 1911
Any more to add??

1911 "Hit list"

Roslyn D'Onston (found by Mike C)
Joseph Barnett
Joseph Fleming
Aaron Kosminski
Fred Abberline
John McCarthy
Israel Schwartz
George Hutchinson
Joseph Lawende

Of these only the following seem certain so far:
HOUSEHOLD BARNETT JOSEPH M 1858 53 St George in the East London
HOUSEHOLD ABBERLINE FREDERICK GEORGE M 1843 68 Christchurch Hampshire

I have found Lawende, and the Schwartz who I think is probably the right one - the one who lived in Samuel Street in 1891.

I have not been able to find Aaron Kozminski. I think that will require either wildcards or working all through the returns for Leavesden.

Edit: I have most of Aaron's immediate family, though.

[Chris]

How about Isaac Kosminski? Also Levy, Ostrog and Pizer.

I don't think there's any doubt that Pizer is the one who died in 1897, so no point looking for him.