Dutfields Yard interior photograph, 1900

[Mike Covell]

However, clearly that isn't your grandmother, Caz, the whole thing's obviously a fake and that's some other family, elsewhere in the world a week ago last Wednesday.

B.

I have to agree with Bailey, if you look closely at the little boys white hat, it says:- "Obama 08"

[Brenda]

Possibly, quite possibly, our lady photographer had no interest in JTR at all. She could have been hanging out in Berner Street for whatever reason, when someone mentions, "say, did you know that spot over there is where they discovered one of the unfortunate JTR victims?" And the lady thinks "my goodness, ol' Charlie back home would be interested in that! I must get a shot!"

I don't think getting a shot of the local people demonstrating a certain site or event would be all that unusual. Here in the US, unfortunately, there are numerous instances of old photographs where a black man was lynched, and the spectators would gather around the body still hanging from the tree for a jolly group photograph!!! Appalling, but true. People would even forward these photos to friends in a postcard-like fashion.

And back then I think a camera was still enough of a novelty to attract curious onlookers. Our lady tourist may have attracted an audience of bored East Enders with nothing much to do on a Sunday afternoon, and they were eager to impress her with their street's little claim to fame.

[caz]

Thanks Mike and Bailey.

Dreadfully off topic I know, but briefly that's my great grandfather (doing a Packer impression before Packer did his!), Alfred Bool, who worked in the 1870s with his brother John, and the much better known Henry Dixon, on a commission for the Society for Photographing Relics of Old London.

It's a shame that the photo was not kept in better conditions before my dad gave it to me in the 1990s.

The only one still alive when I was born is the little blond boy at the back, "Uncle Ted". He went on to father triplets, Violet (who died aged thirteen), Marjorie and Sybil, within days of my grandmother giving birth to my dad, and I remember visiting old Ted at the seaside, where he lived with the two surviving triplets.

But yes, I expect my dad was pulling my leg and staged the pic himself while serving abroad in the early 1940s.

Love,

Caz
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[John Bennett]

Possibly, quite possibly, our lady photographer had no interest in JTR at all. She could have been hanging out in Berner Street for whatever reason, when someone mentions, "say, did you know that spot over there is where they discovered one of the unfortunate JTR victims?" And the lady thinks "my goodness, ol' Charlie back home would be interested in that! I must get a shot!"

I don't think getting a shot of the local people demonstrating a certain site or event would be all that unusual. Here in the US, unfortunately, there are numerous instances of old photographs where a black man was lynched, and the spectators would gather around the body still hanging from the tree for a jolly group photograph!!! Appalling, but true. People would even forward these photos to friends in a postcard-like fashion.

And back then I think a camera was still enough of a novelty to attract curious onlookers. Our lady tourist may have attracted an audience of bored East Enders with nothing much to do on a Sunday afternoon, and they were eager to impress her with their street's little claim to fame.

Absolutely, Brenda, that's probably all there was to it!

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Dr Watson and Nunners.

Richard - annoying cad? No. Annoying, yes, but you always have been and I'm sure you wouldn't have it any other way!

Seriously, though, your questions are relevant and with the limited information you have at present also justifiable.

This woman was on a 103-day tour of Europe, visiting the most important and impressive sites the continent has to offer. The album contained 59 photos of this holiday so you see we are already going to be rather creme-de-la-creme as to what's in the album. Her time in London consisted of eight days and some of those days had scheduled trips, some of those days didn't - just like package holidays in 2008. It was clearly an interest of HERS to see a Whitechapel murder location, or perhaps she took a cab and the cabbie suggested it because she might have got into ghoulish conversation (she has photos in the album of the Pompeii victims, the bones in the vaults under Rome, comments about the guillotine and the Christian Martyrs at Smithfield, so she's obviously a macabre one). There are major locations she visited which didn't warrant an image in the album at all. Nowhere she went has more than one picture of the same place (except for St Peter's in Rome). Vesuvius has one shot. The Leaning Tower of Pisa has one shot. And that's the way it goes through the whole album.

Though the album came to me with some photos detached and a few pages pulled out, I've been able to match them all up again except for one London image of a Horseguard. There is no matching page for this, so I have to assume one London image is lost (the one that would have been on the other side of the sheet). However, there are no missing album pages next to the Berner Street page so it probably wasn't important.

You are wrong to suggest Larry did not know about JTR. That would indeed be odd. He simply, as a layman with no interest in the case, didn't realise how important this image was (as, it appears, did everyone else otherwise there would have been a bidding war as has been suggested on this thread several times. My benefit on taking a gamble on a picture that looked insignificant on the eBay auction page).

Incidentally, I did pay Larry a decent sum of money for the rest of the album and I also sent him money at Christmas last year because he lives on a very low income and has always been charming to deal with. His selling of old photos on eBay is what keeps a roof over his head.

The people are lined up in the alleyway almost certainly because there is a rich American woman with a camera asking about the murder that happened in their street. Try to put that in a 1900 perspective. Exciting for them, no? I have no doubt they were all well aware why she was there as they're standing all around her except for the murder spot, which is clearly on view. Several people are smiling at the camera so the mood is cordial.

Yes, if only she had gone to other sites. A question still remaining is indeed why did she choose this one? I suspect one reason might be that a cabbie would know that Berner Street was a safe place to be (working class but respectable) and that taking her to Dorset Street, for example, would have been foolish. What a scoop for Ripperology that she DID choose this one and not one of the others, though, eh? Who knows - maybe she did go elsewhere? It's just unlikely she would have taken any photos (see above concerning the ratio of places visited to photos taken). One photo, one visit.

Hope that's answered your questions sufficiently. I'm out of the country again from tomorrow and am trying to get things arranged. This has taken up far, far too much of the time I needed for other things.

PHILIP

[Rob Clack]

In the photograph why are the people all lined up, as in some works presentation, what is the significance of the number of people being photographed, if the intention was to capture a Whitechapel murder scene?

Hi Richard,
I've seen quite a few photos from around that period where the locals stand around a camera to try and get themselves in the photo.
This one of Goulston Street I posted a few weeks back is a good example:



There's also the Horn of Plenty photo from 1912 where all the locals stop and look at the camera. It's quite common.

Hi Caz,

Lovely photo, couldn't see any cashew nuts though

Rob X ( the 'X' is for Caz not Richard, better make that clear)

[mac-the-kipper]

Okay so, after looking at this photo in detail, I have come to a conclusion. I am less convinced than ever that whatshisname with the pony actually interrupted JtR in the act. I am not really a spatially creative person, I don't "see" what's described, so before I couldn't adequately visualize the alley, but I am fairly convinced given the space confines and what not, now that I've seen the alley, that Pony Dude ( sorry massive name aphasia right at this second) would have HEARD Jack running away or sensed movement, no matter how dark it was. The alley isn't big enough.

So...don't think Jack was interrupted in the act. My thoughts only prompted by the photograph and probably shouldn't be posted here in any rate.

I've thought this for a while now. If Pony dude's pony was shod, it would have been heard clip clopping from a good way off. Even if it wasn't, the rumble of the cart wheels could have been heard from a fair distance.
Even in today's mad and manic society a horse can be heard walking on tarmac roads from a good way off. There's no way in my mind that whoever killed in that alley was disturbed by a pony and cart.

[mac-the-kipper]

Philip, any chance of seeing the pic of the Horse Guard please? As a former member myself I would find this most interesting.

[Fisherman]

Philip writes:

"The people are lined up in the alleyway almost certainly because there is a rich American woman with a camera asking about the murder that happened in their street. Try to put that in a 1900 perspective. Exciting for them, no? I have no doubt they were all well aware why she was there as they're standing all around her except for the murder spot, which is clearly on view."

Thanks for sharing your wiews, Philip. One thing that I find fascinating is that it seems that the good people of Berner Street knew EXACTLY where Stride was found. Twelwe years is not all that short a period, and people tend to forget and confuse things over time. There is, of course, that film of James Mason pointing us in the wrong direction totally at the back of 29 Hanbury Street that goes to show this.
It is a tempting thought to ponder that some of the bystanders actually was there when it all went down. Not that we will ever know, though...

The best,
Fisherman

[John Bennett]

I've thought this for a while now. If Pony dude's pony was shod, it would have been heard clip clopping from a good way off. Even if it wasn't, the rumble of the cart wheels could have been heard from a fair distance.
Even in today's mad and manic society a horse can be heard walking on tarmac roads from a good way off. There's no way in my mind that whoever killed in that alley was disturbed by a pony and cart.

This is actually fair comment and looking at the photograph as we have, does bring into question whether Stride's killer (JTR or otherwise) was still in the yard hiding in the shadows when Diemschutz's horse shied. There would have been plenty of shadows, but hardly any room.

As Mac says, the sound of an approaching pony and cart would have been heard a while before arrival, which may suggest that the murderer slipped away before it was too late to. That said, there is no report (as far as I am aware) of Diemschutz seeing anybody leave Dutfield's Yard as he approached.

If this was the case, the timing must have been INCREDIBLY tight and fortuitous for the killer.

Just a wee thought.

[Harry the Hawker]

Perhaps whoever was in the dark alley doing his evil deed heard the pony & cart coming down Berner's Street, but had no reason to assume it would pull into Dutfield's Yard - what are the odds? In which case, it would only be when he heard it slowling to enter the yard that this possibility might strike him, just giving him time to flit into the shadows...

[George Hutchinson]

I'm with HH on this one. At present I feel he might have gone down the end of the yard when he heard LD pulling up and was just peeking round the corner down by the stables.

Mac - PM me your address and I'll send you a jpeg of the Horseguard. Not putting up any more photos on here relating to this album!

PHILIP

[Fisherman]

I think the killer was gone as Diemschitz arrived. Not long gone, though, since Spooner could see that the blood was still flowing from Stride´s wound as he arrived, a couple of minutes after one o clock.
We know that Mrs Mortimer heard Diemshitz arriving, meaning that she was inside her house at the time. And the minutes leading up to her hearing the cart and pony after having returned inisde is the time I suggest the killer employed for his flight.
If we (very roughly) fix the moment when she was cut to somewhere around five minutes to one o clock, we have about eight to ten minutes for BS man to get it overwith, if it was he who did the cutting.
If it was, and if he was somebody Stride knew and was at ease with, we can envisage the couple having an argument in a lowered voice at the club wall, an argument during which Stride takes her cachous out, giving us a valuable clue to the nature of the encounter in the yard.

The best!
Fisherman

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Caz,
It was getting late and I was getting silly ---but I dont think I was the only one.So Caz,yes,you were quite right about " hear" as in "hearing"-but why the flying leap to [jokingly] take issue over my Linguistic qualifications?
I have never considered it a big deal myself ,but actually I have indeed undertaken quite a bit of "scholarly research"----for what thats worth[?]and which happened to be the point I was making in response to Martin who was lording it over Stewart at the time,over the questionable superiority of him having a doctorate in History[?] and Stewart not having one.I myself have never paid any attention to those "experts" who believe their scholarly qualifications entitle them to dismiss the thinking of others they themselves perceive as "less qualified".Mostly this is because they are often living in the dubious " ivory tower" of academia".I myself actually much prefer the up-to-the-minute ,cutting edge research of Colin say ,or,[and I say this despite the present altercation I am having with them], the type of diligent ,hands on and current research followed by Monty,Rob and Philip-whatever the academic qualifications any or all of these may have .
I also happen to find Ap,---and yourself for that matter----to be hugely entertaining and bright and academic when required---and you both have original ideas you can express in ways to die for-and half the reason I come on the casebook is to read these clever,witty,outrageous and sometimes scandalous postings.
Finally though,I return to the writings of SPE ,who though he doesn"t ever claim to be some kind of Rhodes scholar but who
actually is our resident expert in both "theory and practice" , someone as knowledgeable about police procedures as he is about human culpability and certainly standing second to none when it comes to Whitechapel 1888 and all that surrounds the case of JtR.
So lets leave slagging one another off.We all do our bit on here-as best we can.......and I dont really give much of a hoot if you do think I bought a degree just to have a go at poor old Martin-----its fine by me Caz!

[caz]

Hi Nats,

Well I think I made my point. It's not nice, is it, to have someone make flying leaps to take issue with you, whether it's to suggest that you are too uneducated to have obtained your academic qualifications legitimately or too stupid to know when you are being sold a duff photo staged in the 1930s? But you missed the point completely if you think I actually believe you bought your degree, or was accusing you of doing so. It was merely an example that I thought mirrored, fairly accurately, what AP was putting Philip through.

Love,

Caz
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