Dutfields Yard interior photograph, 1900

[Simon Wood]

Hi Philip,

My post wasn't a criticism. I was merely pointing out what I perceived as discrepancies between my understanding of Dutfields Yard and your photograph.

Thanks for clearing them up.

I look forward to seeing the hi-res version.

Regards,

Simon

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Simon. I wasn't having a pop at you in the post and there was nothing in your question that annoyed me. It was aimed at the people doubting its relevance and authenticity. Yes, you did ask me if I'm sure it's Dutfields Yard but that's fair enough in the circumstances. If you read this whole thread you'd find it out but I can't blame anyone for not wanting to trawl through the pages and pages this has generated in the last 48 hours, especially when so much of it is by posters who have done themselves no favours.

PHILIP

[Trevor Marriott]

There is no suspicion if anyhting the photo makes the crime scene more understandable.

Clearly the murder took place much further down than was initially belived18-20 feet from main entrance to street at the the junction where the alley and the yard come together together

[John Bennett]

A busy 48 hours, eh Phil? A 16hr journey from the States, a Ripper Tour and now this.

Personally, I can't wait for the next project by Linder, Morris & Skinner: "Dutfield's Yard Photo: The Inside Story".

[Stewart P Evans]

Gates

There is no suspicion if anyhting the photo makes the crime scene more understandable.
Clearly the murder took place much further down than was initially belived18-20 feet from main entrance to street at the the junction where the alley and the yard come together together

Trevor the body was lying just inside the gates off the street, leaving just enough room for the gates to be shut without touching the body. As PC Lamb said, "...they [Stride's feet] went just behind it, and I was able to close the gates without disturbing the body."

[Stewart P Evans]

The Gates

This is the 1909 photo of the gates at the entrance to Dutfield's Yard -



The entrance was quite narrow, just over 9 feet wide.

[George Hutchinson]

Thank you, Stewart. I fear we are speaking into a hollow space, however. To paraphrase yourself, "Anyone who knows anything about the case knows that". Some clearly know nothing.

PHILIP

[jmenges]

I did these quick mock-ups to illustrate where these people nearest to the camera were standing, in case there is any confusion.



red X marks roughly the spot of the photographer, who must have been crouching.


And, maybe not quite to scale, but..



orange box roughly the spot where Stride was discovered.


That's how I see it, anyway.

JM

[Stewart P Evans]

Berner Street

Just for comparison, here's the 1909 shot of the Berner Street location with the shot I took of it in August 1967. I didn't see any tour guides that day!

[Monty]

Trevor,

Best go and check the testimonies again, just as that upstart Stewart has obviously done.

A small pedantic point, the gates in both Phils and Stewarts pics arent as they were in 88. Anal I know.

Monty.

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Monty.

They're not the same gates as in 1888.... therefore... according to some, that must mean that the 1909 shot of Berner Street and the 1900 shot are NOT Dutfields Yard!

Those kids wouldn't have been born... probably not Dutfields Yard either then. You can't see the end of the yard because it is off shot behind the building on the right. Not Dutfields Yard either.

The evidence is now overwhelming! Liz Stride never existed. I think I'll set up my own website.

SPE - never saw that 1967 shot before. What else did you take that day we've not seen yet?

PHILIP

[Trevor Marriott]

Well i am going to suggest that i do not totall agree with Stewart as we know a lot of testimony in this case has been conflicting.

One point if the gates were opened then surely it would not be pitch black from the street entrance the first few yards would have been visible in half light from the street lights or from the club

"Louis Diemschutz, a salesman of jewelry, entered Dutfield's Yard driving his cart and pony. Immediately at the entrace, his pony shied and refused to proceed -- Diemschutz suspected something was in the way but could not see since the yard was utterly pitch black. He probed forward with his whip and came into contact with a body, whom he initially believed to be either drunk or asleep.

This suggests he drove down to the yard at the end of the alley.

[Jewal]

Philip,

I just had a thought. I agree that the man in the apron appears to be showing the photographer the location of the murder site.. Her Ripper Tour guide of sorts... (hee hee)

It just occurred to me... perhaps he was there after the murder... part of the crowd of onlookers... and thus knew where to show her it happened. (twilight zone music plays in the background) makes me look at him and think.... wow!

[Stewart P Evans]

Wrong

Well i am going to suggest that i do not totall agree with Stewart as we know a lot of testimony in this case has been conflicting.
One point if the gates were opened then surely it would not be pitch black from the street entrance the first few yards would have been visible in half light from the street lights or from the club
"Louis Diemschutz, a salesman of jewelry, entered Dutfield's Yard driving his cart and pony. Immediately at the entrace, his pony shied and refused to proceed -- Diemschutz suspected something was in the way but could not see since the yard was utterly pitch black. He probed forward with his whip and came into contact with a body, whom he initially believed to be either drunk or asleep.
This suggests he drove down to the yard at the end of the alley.

What you have written (in bold) agrees with what I have stated. You are simply wrong Trevor.

[John Bennett]

"Louis Diemschutz, a salesman of jewelry, entered Dutfield's Yard driving his cart and pony. Immediately at the entrace, his pony shied and refused to proceed -- Diemschutz suspected something was in the way but could not see since the yard was utterly pitch black. He probed forward with his whip and came into contact with a body, whom he initially believed to be either drunk or asleep.

This suggests he drove down to the yard at the end of the alley.

No it doesn't.

Like it says in the posted description "immediately at the entrance". It does not say he drove down the end of any alley into the/a yard.