Census

[Dan Norder]

If it's not commercially available yet it doesn't mean some nobody out of nowhere can just decide for himself to put it out for free and hurt the prospects of making it commercially viable later... especially while advertising his own web site in the process. And of course when it aired "for free" on television it was accompanied by commercials and the owners got paid.

I know a lot of people don't seem to care about such things until it's their own intellectual property that gets stolen, but that's a pretty shortsighted way of looking at things.

[Ashkenaz]

No, the owners did not post it on YouTube. Someone else placed it there without permission. It's stolen property. That's why I mentioned it..

You dont know that ! You only suspect that !

If you think the professionals that made that documentary would post their work for free on YouTube under the name "CrazedLunatic83" with a link to "wWw.BeStPaGeOnEaRtH.Com" you're pretty clueless.

What name would you like them to post it under ? Anyone who so readily jumps to conclusions can only be pretty clueless in my opinion.

[claire]

Wow, everybody needs a Chris Scott That's incredible!

I don't know that the census would have been used for crime solving purposes, since it's not designed to give a precise picture of who is usually somewhere, just where they were on the date of the census. I suppose I should also clarify that I haven't suggested that the good gentlemen who went around gathering the data (God, I don't envy them) would be slapdash. It's just rather easy to get things muddled (you'll see all the crossings out in the original docs!), and you're also reliant on the person you talk to being careful enough to get details and so on correct.

But I can certainly understand the excitement that JtR's name might be on a list (like Chris S's above)...not that it necessarily tells you much (although could be a starting point for more rootling, I imagine), but it is still a little bit of a fascinating idea whenever you're suspect chasing...Reminds me of that documentary, My Name is Osama...all the Osamas who aren't Osama bin Laden. This would be, all the WChapel residents who aren't JtR, and no less fascinating for all that

[Ashkenaz]

To give some idea of the figures involved:
1881 Census:
Flower and Dean Street
No of residents listed - 1062
No of male residents - 658
Males aged 20-30 at the time of the murders (i.e. aged 13 to 23 at the time of census) - 99

Thrawl Street
No of residents - 406
No of males - 212
No of males aged 20-30 - 25

Fashion Street
No of residents - 503
No of males - 253
No of males aged 20-30 - 59

Below, as an example, is the data for Fashion Street:
(Males aged 20-30 at time of murders)
Name Parent or spouse names Birth Year Birthplace Relation RESIDENCE
Judah Bannett Betsy abt 1858 Tower Hamlets, Middlesex, England Head Christ Church, London
Hyman Banuch David, Leah abt 1864 Spitalfield, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Samuel Caster Henry, Catherine abt 1861 (F), The Netherlands Son Christ Church, London
Charles Clarke Lizzie abt 1858 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Head Christ Church, London
Aaron Cohen Isaac, Elizabeth abt 1867 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Abraham Cohen Isaac, Elizabeth abt 1862 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Harris Cohen Hyams, Hannah abt 1868 (F), Russia Son Christ Church, London
Hyman Cohen Samuel, Henrietta abt 1861 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Philip Cohen Isaac, Elizabeth abt 1860 Spitalfields Son Christ Church, London
Solomon Cohen Abraham, Sophia abt 1867 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Woolf Cohen Isaac, Elizabeth abt 1864 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Aaron Coon Joseph, Celia abt 1865 (F), The Netherlands Son Christ Church, London
Samuel Coon Joseph, Celia abt 1860 (F), The Netherlands Son Christ Church, London
Moses Coronel Aaron, Kitty abt 1862 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Samuel Coronel Aaron, Kitty abt 1864 (F), The Netherlands Son Christ Church, London
Zacharia Coronel Aaron, Kitty abt 1866 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Benjamin Davis Isaac, Rebecca abt 1868 (F), Poland Son Christ Church, London
Solomon Davis Isaac, Rebecca abt 1867 (F), Poland Son Christ Church, London
Morris Eizer Meyer, Sophia abt 1860 (F), The Netherlands Son Christ Church, London
Charles Elliott Richard, Matilda abt 1865 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Richard Elliott Richard, Matilda abt 1862 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Abraham Galinsky Morris, Cecily abt 1860 (F), Russia Son Christ Church, London
David Galinsky Morris, Cecily abt 1863 (F), Russia Son Christ Church, London
David Gold Abraham, Rebecca abt 1865 (F), Poland Son Christ Church, London
Morris Gold Esther abt 1858 (F), Poland Head Christ Church, London
Morris Goldstein Samuel, Janie abt 1868 (F), Poland Son Christ Church, London
Hyman Grasinsky Esther abt 1859 (F), Russia Head Christ Church, London
Abraham Haringman Solomon, Rebecca abt 1866 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
David Haringman Solomon, Rebecca abt 1868 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Abraham Harris Samuel, Sarah abt 1868 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Abraham Ioninbourn Solomon, Fanny abt 1864 (F), Poland Son Christ Church, London
David M. Jackshere Solomon, Betsey abt 1863 (F), Poland Son Christ Church, London
Harris Jackshere abt 1863 (F), Poland Uncle Christ Church, London
Benjamin Jonas Ohab abt 1859 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Harris Klein Jacob, Hannah abt 1866 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Sam Klein Jacob, Hannah abt 1861 (F), Poland Son Christ Church, London
Harris Lagatshesski Rebecca abt 1858 (F), Poland Head Christ Church, London
Joseph Lautenberg Marks, Pauline abt 1866 (F), Poland Son Christ Church, London
Joseph Levy abt 1860 (F), Russia Visitor Christ Church, London
George Mullier Emanuel, Janet abt 1865 (F), The Netherlands Son Christ Church, London
Isake Mullier Emanuel, Janet abt 1859 (F), The Netherlands Son Christ Church, London
Simon Mullier Emanuel, Janet abt 1868 (F), The Netherlands Son Christ Church, London
Samuel Osborne Samuel, Ellen M. abt 1868 B Green, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Baznett Park Isaac, Esther abt 1868 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Joseph Park Isaac, Esther abt 1866 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Morris Peterchosky Isaac, Rachel abt 1868 (F), Poland Son Christ Church, London
Jacob Polack Henry, Phaele abt 1863 (F), The Netherlands Son Christ Church, London
John Quaintrell John, Mary abt 1861 B Green, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Thomas Quaintrell John, Mary abt 1865 B Green, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
David Rees Henry, Deborah abt 1867 Lambeth, Surrey, England Son Christ Church, London
Jacob Roose abt 1861 (F), Poland Servant Christ Church, London
Eleazear Ryner abt 1861 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Nephew Christ Church, London
Barnett Shulman Marks, Fanny abt 1868 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Jacob Silver Lewis, Hannah abt 1862 (F), Poland Son Christ Church, London
Gordon Van De Wouds Benjamin, Laartze abt 1868 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Jacob Van De Wouds Benjamin, Laartze abt 1863 (F), The Netherlands Son Christ Church, London
Joseph Ventura Abraham, Julia abt 1864 Spitalfields, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London
Emanuel Welstan Moses abt 1860 (F), The Netherlands Son Christ Church, London
John Wetenigh John, Susan abt 1862 London, London, Middlesex, England Son Christ Church, London

Well done Chris. I'm impressed. Possibly the fiend is in this quite small list of 183 men

I think we need to spread the net wider though, so that if we have him, he does not escape .

Exclude the males 50+ , and those aged 17 or less.
Not those above 30 and below 20.

Can you please do this ? You are much more skillful than myself with this stuff.

Many thanks Sir

[Ashkenaz]

Wow, everybody needs a Chris Scott That's incredible!

I don't know that the census would have been used for crime solving purposes,

Not in 1888 I suppose. They could just go and interview everyone living in the area. That's something we cant do. Retrospectively, the census is a useful tool for us.

It might have been better if it was done in 1888, but it is still useful.

What interests me, is that geographical profiling had not been invented in jtr's time. He had no fear of this tool which would only be available in 100 years.

I think its likely he gave his real name if he was there for the census, why not ?

If he lied and was discovered, that may have invited further police interest.

[claire]

If he was there, he may well have given his real name. Then again, he might not--and I doubt the police would have found out or cared, to be perfectly honest, given the number of pseudonyms and aliases and akas and divorces and misspellings and 'acquired' names (just think of all those Russian and Polish names that were anglicised within a few years of arriving)...

But, hey, no harm in giving it a poke, I guess

[m_w_r]

Ashkenaz -

This thread is depressing me now. Your thesis is back to front - you cannot find an unknown murderer, whom you only suppose to be living locally either seven years before or four years after his murders, by looking in the censuses. It is impossible. Claire is a statistician, and a fine contributor to these boards, and she has tried to tell you. Chris Scott is one of the best researchers on the site - in the top five, if you ask me - and he has tried to tell you. Now that you have his list of names, what are you going to do with it? I wonder whether you oughtn't refrain from taking this any further - it is looking amateurish.

I really don't mean to be rude, and the truth is that I have very little time for suspect-level work, but all you are likely to generate is a huge index of names, and even when you have it, you will have no way of knowing whether Jack the Ripper's name is on it or not. Sorry. Please don't waste your time.

Regards,

Mark

[Ashkenaz]

Ashkenaz -

This thread is depressing me now.

Well do pardon me for depressing you. A fail safe cure is to avoid clicking on this thread. I didn't ask you here.

Your thesis is back to front - you cannot find an unknown murderer, whom you only suppose to be living locally either seven years before or four years after his murders, by looking in the censuses. It is impossible.

The geographical profiler has something else to say, and I would sooner listen to him than you.

You think that it is inappropriate to consider who was living in those streets seven years before and four after the murders. You are mistaken. JTR was a local man, a working man, that is the belief of many. Now if he had been offending prior to the canonical five murders,and some think he was, then he might well appear on the 1881 census.

Conversely, had he ceased his crime spree due to ill health rather than most other theories, he may very well appear on the census for 1891 too.

Detective work I have read, is mostly drudgery, just as this is drudgery. But it is the routine commitment to drudgery that gets the job done by the police


C

laire is a statistician, and a fine contributor to these boards, and she has tried to tell you. Chris Scott is one of the best researchers on the site - in the top five, if you ask me - and he has tried to tell you. Now that you have his list of names, what are you going to do with it? I wonder whether you oughtn't refrain from taking this any further - it is looking amateurish.

And what do you imagine Claire and Chris have tried to tell me? I am sure they can easily talk for themselves, do not presume to speak for others.

I really don't mean to be rude, and the truth is that I have very little time for suspect-level work, but all you are likely to generate is a huge index of names, and even when you have it, you will have no way of knowing whether Jack the Ripper's name is on it or not. Sorry. Please don't waste your time.

Regards,

Mark

You certainly do mean to be rude.

A huge index of names ? I would not call 183 names a huge index of names.

Of course we will have no way of knowing if jtr's name is on the list. We will also have no way of knowing whether jtr's name is not on the list.

Wasting my time ? I dont think so. Its as valid as any other piece of investigation.

Rather, I would say it you who are wasting an opportunity.

[claire]

At the very least, I think it's highly probable that Jack T. Ripper, Esq. was actively offending prior to the murders. Not definite, but likely. I confess that I think the chances of moving forward from the 1881 census data are diminishingly small, but you just never know. Someone I know was doing some research for a novel and came across a familiar surname in a census (mid 19th C, sorry, don't remember which one). Turned out to be an ancestor of hers whose whereabouts people hadn't been able to trace and so sent her off on all sorts of wonderful journeys of (self-) discovery. Sometimes, just sometimes, we do find that needle in the proverbial haystack. It's just that the statistical chances of doing so are dangerously close to zero

I suppose if you could match names from census to census to get a list of constant names, even if they're not at the same address but in the same area, they'll be your likelier candidates. Plus, as well as checking the 1891 for local matches with the 1881, it's worth checking it and other sources for, um, 'residence' in prisons, asylums and other hospitals. Suicide data might be another way to go. Then you'd need to check all sources for possible location during that period in 1888 (prison, hospital et c).

The credibility of all this, though, really depends on the cleanliness of that census data. It's not great now, but at least we have processes for cleaning it up. I don't know, Ashkenaz. I think it's great you'd look at it; I just don't know how much store I'd set by it. But as an exercise, it may well be useful (I just don't know what for, yet!!).

[Ashkenaz]

I don't know, Ashkenaz. I think it's great you'd look at it; I just don't know how much store I'd set by it. But as an exercise, it may well be useful (I just don't know what for, yet!!).

HMmmn. Well once more here is what it may be useful for.

If the geographical profiler is correct in that jtr most likely lived in flower and dean street, fleet street or fashion street and he was in residence in 1881 and/or 1891, and the census officials did their job professionally then we might have the fiends name in a list.

The list as Chris shows maybe as short as 183 suspects. I think this is worthy of consideration.

In fact, its the most interesting thing I've seen on this forum.

[Sam Flynn]

Just out of interest, around a quarter of Flower & Dean Street was demolished in 1883, in readiness for the construction of Rothschild Buildings (opened 1887). I'm not sure whether that part of the street was vacant or occupied at the time of the 1881 Census. If occupied, then it wasn't just some - if not all - of those people who had gone away by 1888, but the very buildings in which they lived!

[Ashkenaz]

Just out of interest, around a quarter of Flower & Dean Street was demolished in 1883, in readiness for the construction of Rothschild Buildings (opened 1887). I'm not sure whether that part of the street was vacant or occupied at the time of the 1881 Census. If occupied, then it wasn't just some - if not all - of those people who had gone away by 1888, but the very buildings in which they lived!

Good contribution. Thanks Sam

[claire]

HMmmn. Well once more here is what it may be useful for.

If the geographical profiler is correct in that jtr most likely lived in flower and dean street, fleet street or fashion street and he was in residence in 1881 and/or 1891, and the census officials did their job professionally then we might have the fiends name in a list.

The list as Chris shows maybe as short as 183 suspects. I think this is worthy of consideration.

In fact, its the most interesting thing I've seen on this forum.

Oh, no, I understood what use you'd intend it to have...what I meant is that there were probably also some other rather interesting nuggets to be had in there (not least a reasonable gauge of geographical mobility, Sam's note about the demolition notwithstanding). If mobility was high, for example, we might expect that strangers/incomers were less noticeable than is often assumed.

[Ashkenaz]

Oh, no, I understood what use you'd intend it to have...what I meant is that there were probably also some other rather interesting nuggets to be had in there (not least a reasonable gauge of geographical mobility, Sam's note about the demolition notwithstanding). If mobility was high, for example, we might expect that strangers/incomers were less noticeable than is often assumed.

Hi Claire

In your opinion, is there any validity to my idea ? It seems we are fresh out of ideas, given the paucity of clues.

It seems a breath of fresh air to me..

[m_w_r]

Ashkenaz -

With reference to your reply to my post (above).

I should probably apologise for the immoderate tone of my post. I enjoy Casebook, and at its best it is a venue not only for new research, but for new lines of research, and you are quite right to point out that, purely on the basis of mathematics, suspect-level enquiries cannot afford to rule out any possibilities.

I think that my mathematics still apply, however, to the scope of your enquiry. I can only wonder at the sheer scale of a task which proposes to survey the vast population of Spitalfields over two censuses. If, for example, you were to find an individual in the 1881 census who demonstrably still resided in the area in 1891, but who had in the meantime sustained an injury which would obviously incapacitate a would-be murderer, then this might be interesting in view of the various arguments about the cessation of the Whitechapel series. Given that the census enumerators were sometimes interested in such information, you might just find someone to whom these details applied, who may in turn be worth putting on your list of people who could have been Jack the Ripper. How you then go about proving your thesis I do not know. On the question of demonstrated local residence and sudden and permanent incapacity, you will probably know about Edward Buchan and Thomas Barnardo, to name but two. Druitt, of course, is a suspect whose familiarity with the East End still provokes debate.

As you might be able to tell, I am interested in the censuses - they are a goldmine of information for the social historian. I can only wish you well with your "drudgery", as you put it (I thought this had something to do with lexicography, but there you go), and, of course, the drudgery of the investigation into the Yorkshire Ripper ended eventually in the conviction of the murderer. His arrest though, owed more to happy accident than to the (literally) tons of paperwork which had accumulated on the floor of the investigation room - to find Jack the Ripper, I would suggest that you might need a stroke of fortune of significantly greater proportions.

Good luck with your research (meant sincerely).

Regards,

Mark