distances between kills.odd

[Batman]

Here is a picture of the people who opened the Rosicrucian Hermetic order of the golden dawn temple to Isis and Urania 1888.

https://www.gdcss.org/The-Golden-Dawn

Here we have a dark haired man with a beard and long twirled mustache. Shave the chin and we have the man who was last seen with Kelly.

Also we have a man in glasses with a fair mustache. Take off the glasses and we have the other guy seen with the victims with a 'carroty' mustache.

Here in the wiki for the temple we have more suspects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis-Urania_Temple

You do know all of this is in Alan Moore's "From Hell" which is based on Stephen Knight's book "The Final Solution" (what a strange name for a book, BTW).

[albie]

Here

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kXLAfCBj4boC&pg=PA272&lpg=PA272&dq=temple+to+isis+urania+venus&source=bl&ots=e51ib1jga9&sig=PiQU4Pkh_Qav6GChRr0cyMLrSbI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwizj9nH-vneAhUB_aQKHc-TBmEQ6AEwC3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=temple%20to%20isis%20urania%20venus&f=false

We have a book on the golden dawn cult explicitly saying that ISis and urania are Venus.

It seems The Golden Dawn used kabbalah. Venus features on the tree of life in that practise.

[albie]

You do know all of this is in Alan Moore's "From Hell" which is based on Stephen Knight's book "The Final Solution" (what a strange name for a book, BTW).

I have read it but did they mention the isis urania temple? I seem to recall Moore scripted the theory of Gull and Netley and the royal conspiracy.

I am not claiming to be the genesis of the notion of it being magic related. But no one has discovered that the body parts all relate to venus etc.

[Batman]

I have read it but did they mention the isis urania temple? I seem to recall Moore scripted the theory of Gull and Netley and the royal conspiracy.

I am not claiming to be the genesis of the notion of it being magic related. But no one has discovered that the body parts all relate to venus etc.

Yes, it's all in there, especially at the start of Gull's meeting Netley and taking him around Whitechapel. Even Moore admits there is no evidence Netley existed.

[albie]

Yes, it's all in there, especially at the start of Gull's meeting Netley and taking him around Whitechapel. Even Moore admits there is no evidence Netley existed.

You are certain ALL of it is there? Even the bit about the body parts and venus? I will be checking.

[Batman]

Gull even meets the Golden Dawn in the person of Yates. The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn plays a role in the book. I am pretty sure nearly everything you mention, including the pentagram, is in the section where he meets Netley and takes him on a tour of off all this stuff around London pointing out Egyptian influences and gods etc.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ladies and gentleman, I give you, a man who is clearly threatened.

Nope. A man with a low nonsense tolerance level.

Yes those examples I gave you of our governments being EVIL are true. Look them up.

You say they are true. They may be. But are they generally accepted to be true by the majority or are they just considered true by conspiracy theorists?

And 99% of conspiracy theories have not been disproved. I do not ascribe to many of them, including the moon landings(although it is fact that the first flag on the moon was a masonic banner)or the flat earth theory.

The problem is that once you start obsessing about conspiracies everything can be viewed with the conspiracy goggles on. Just because one conspiracy might have occurred it doesn’t follow that everything is a conspiracy.

And I pointed out that there is no evidence for any of the ripper theories. You failed to counter that. And that is the crux of the matter. All we have is circumstantial evidence. No cctv footage, no nucleic dna. No fingerprints. No witness actually seeing the ripper in action. No confessions. Nothing. So how is my circumstantial evidence worse than yours?

Well for a start you aren’t a senior Victorian Police Officer. So when we get Anderson and MacNaghten (to name two) nominating suspects it carries more weight than an imaginary mystery. Of course we can’t take their word as gospel but we have to consider them seriously. We have witnesses like a Lechmere and Hutchinson to consider (we know for a fact that they were around) and whilst I don’t believe them guilty they still carry more weight than just saying it was a group of black magicians. Bury was an actual murderer who actually consorted with prostitutes and actually mutilated a woman with a knife so he too weighs far more heavily than a mystery organisation. Then there’s the fact that we can ask how many serial killers in history arranged to kill their victims in certain places to conform to a supernatural pattern? They kill for personal reasons. Because they want to...or need to.

You cannot admit that it comes down to this: "It's got magic in it, I don't believe in that: therefore I do not believe in the theory".

I don’t believe in it because there’s nothing to make anyone believe it. That’s why no ripperologists do believe it.

I accept that some people believe in magic. They are mistaken.

You recognize that this a flimsy argument and cannot voice it. So we get "drivel" and "that's not evidence." Over and over. No explanation of why it is not evidence.

If you can’t see why this isn’t evidence then there’s no point going on about it. I’ll say again...look for mystery, patterns, signs in anything and you will categorically find them. It doesn’t mean that they are real.

The killer could only control a few things. When he killed, where he killed and what he did with the bodies. And all three of these are found to be Venus related.

They are serial killer related. The rest is imagination and Venus has no more to do with the murders than ironing boards, chairs or cheese sandwiches.

There’s a guy in America who believes that Jack The Ripper was Vincent Van Gogh because he’s seen ‘images’ in his paintings. There’s a guy who thinks the same about an alleged Sickert painting. This is simply reading to much into something to create a ‘theory’ and this is exactly what you are doing.

[Herlock Sholmes]

As for your films. I agree with them. I know conspiracy theorists have it easy because actual scientists and the intelligentsia will not debate with them.

With good reason. It’s why Richard Dawkins has given up debating with a Creationists.

I was a skeptic for years and still am. I am David Icke's biggest detractor, to the point that I was banned from twitter. I go to the trouble to apply critical thinking.

Again, you are looking for patterns and signs. Something that you can do with anything. Patterns are there to be found but you need facts to make them relevant and you have none.

You have NOT in this instance. That is why all you have is insults and slamming your fist on the table shouting repetitions.

I’m responding...that’s all. You were the one who made a sweeping statement like ‘we know that the killer wasn’t working alone’ (before you say anything Albie that’s not a direct quote but it’s the gist of what you said.) as if it’s a fact. It’s not a fact. You are of course at liberty to believe it but it’s definitely not a fact as you claimed.

When every aspect of the ripper killings leads to venus, what am I supposed to do? NOt mention it? It's not like I'm writing a book. I'm just mentioning it on a forum.

You can mention it all you like Albie but I’ll hazard a guess that you’ll find no one that agrees.

LIghten up.If you don't think there's anything in it then move along. Don't act like some kind of forum bouncer or bully trying to shame me into stopping. All forums have them. Their favourite forums become a second home to them and we different people are soon picked out.

A gross exaggeration Albie. I disagree with your assertion and have given my reasons. If you expect to propose a theory like yours on a Forum then you should be prepared for criticisms. Surely you can’t have expected people to accept your assertions?

Fact: You haven't read all the EVIDENCE. You have no right to comment as you are doing.

Yes I do I’m afraid

noun
1.
the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

Information?

noun
1.
facts provided or learned about something or someone.
"a vital piece of information"
synonyms: details, particulars, facts, figures, statistics, data; More
2.
what is conveyed or represented by a particular arrangement or sequence of things.
"genetically transmitted information"

Facts. It is fact that all the body parts taken connect to Venus(prove this is not a fact)

Venus is irrelevant.

It is fact that most of the distances between kills are very similar in length. (prove this to be not a fact)

It proves nothing of the kind.

It is a fact that the days between each murder relate to venus directly or indirectly. (prove me wrong)

Still irrelevant. A meaningless coincidence.

Fact: a temple to Isis and Urania was opened near Whitechapel in 1888. Both these Goddesses are related to love and hence Venus. (prove me wrong)

Irrelevant.

Fact: the year 1888 relates to Venus and Jesus( who deposed Venus religiously)

Irrelevant.

The number of canonical deaths relates to venus.

Irrelevant.

Show me another theory that has this many facts around it leading to a suspect?

They are irrelevant facts and so can be dismissed.

There are none.

Druitt? HE killed himself after the murders. That's it. People write books on him. And so on.

I question how many books on the case you’ve read. If any.

[albie]

>>But are they generally accepted to be true by the majority or are they just considered true by conspiracy theorists?

They are facts. Look them up.

>>Well for a start you aren’t a senior Victorian Police Officer. So when we get Anderson and MacNaghten (to name two) nominating suspects it carries more weight than an imaginary mystery. Of course we can’t take their word as gospel but we have to consider them seriously. We have witnesses like a Lechmere and Hutchinson to consider (we know for a fact that they were around) and whilst I don’t believe them guilty they still carry more weight than just saying it was a group of black magicians. Bury was an actual murderer who actually consorted with prostitutes and actually mutilated a woman with a knife so he too weighs far more heavily than a mystery organisation. Then there’s the fact that we can ask how many serial killers in history arranged to kill their victims in certain places to conform to a supernatural pattern? They kill for personal reasons. Because they want to...or need to.

All your examples are circumstantial evidence. No better than what I have and I have MORE than they do.

>>I don’t believe in it because there’s nothing to make anyone believe it. That’s why no ripperologists do believe it.

>>I accept that some people believe in magic. They are mistaken.

Avoiding the question.

>>If you can’t see why this isn’t evidence then there’s no point going on about it. I’ll say again...look for mystery, patterns, signs in anything and you will categorically find them. It doesn’t mean that they are real.

And? I'm doing nothing you guys aren't. Nobody knows for sure they are right.

>>They are serial killer related. The rest is imagination and Venus has no more to do with the murders than ironing boards, chairs or cheese sandwiches.

Totally dismissing the facts I presented. Find the connections between the killings and ironing boards.

[albie]

>>With good reason. It’s why Richard Dawkins has given up debating with a Creationists.

Maybe his argument failed.

>>Again, you are looking for patterns and signs. Something that you can do with anything. Patterns are there to be found but you need facts to make them relevant and you have none.

I have a pattern of facts. More than anyone else. You have yet to tell me why my facts are not evidence.

>>A gross exaggeration Albie. I disagree with your assertion and have given my reasons. If you expect to propose a theory like yours on a Forum then you should be prepared for criticisms. Surely you can’t have expected people to accept your assertions?

You have not. All you have is the word 'drivel'.

>>Fact: You haven't read all the EVIDENCE. You have no right to comment as you are doing.

>>Yes I do I’m afraid.

Tell me all the ways jesus relates to venus then.

>>Venus is irrelevant.

Why is it?

>>It proves nothing of the kind.

Can you not see the diagram then?

>>Still irrelevant. A meaningless coincidence.

Prove it is irrelevant. It's a pretty big mess of coincidences considering I have at least a dozen of these coincidences or more. Your arguments are sadly lacking.

>>They are irrelevant facts and so can be dismissed.

You keep saying 'irrelevant' but never tell me why. Suspicious.

[albie]

>>There’s a guy in America who believes that Jack The Ripper was Vincent Van Gogh because he’s seen ‘images’ in his paintings. There’s a guy who thinks the same about an alleged Sickert painting. This is simply reading to much into something to create a ‘theory’ and this is exactly what you are doing.

AS are you all.

[albie]

Contrary to common belief, Whitechapel wasn't exactly a buzzing "Red Light District", so it's by no means certain that he'd find a victim whenever he liked. Even if he did spot a potential victim, there was no guarantee that the circumstances would have been favourable for him to commit murder. This is almost certainly why we see such gaps between the crimes, and that they were committed at different times of the morning/night. I have no doubt that the Ripper went out hunting on several occasions, only to return home without success.

Considering police had pretty much stopped arresting prostitutes by then in London and poverty was rife I would expect there to be enough to go around.

We will never know how many prostitutes there were in 1888 in Whitechapel. It's not like they kept books.

ARRESTS OF PROSTITUTES DECLINED

The direct result of this order was that police arrests of street prostitutes declined dramatically between 1887 and 1889.

As far as individual constables were concerned it was safer to ignore prostitutes than to attempt to repress them.

Thus by 1888 street walkers had become so emboldened by this official attitude that it became almost impossible to walk along certain London streets without being constantly and publicly solicited.

https://www.jack-the-ripper.org/1888-prostitution.htm

[Batman]

Did you read Alan Moore's From Hell? It seems you are restating mostly the same things. Golden Dawn is featured in it as a masonic splinter group that Gull sends a warning to.

The start of the book with Netley has the Egyptian gods connection.

[Sam Flynn]

Considering police had pretty much stopped arresting prostitutes by then in London and poverty was rife I would expect there to be enough to go around.

The streets weren't carpeted with them at all hours, and I stand by what I said. It's preposterous to believe that the Ripper only went out on the nights of the murders and "struck lucky" every time, and it's also extremely unlikely that he'd have had much control over where he'd find or kill a victim. I doubt whether he'd have cared, either.

[Herlock Sholmes]

>>But are they generally accepted to be true by the majority or are they just considered true by conspiracy theorists?

They are facts. Look them up.

>>Well for a start you aren’t a senior Victorian Police Officer. So when we get Anderson and MacNaghten (to name two) nominating suspects it carries more weight than an imaginary mystery. Of course we can’t take their word as gospel but we have to consider them seriously. We have witnesses like a Lechmere and Hutchinson to consider (we know for a fact that they were around) and whilst I don’t believe them guilty they still carry more weight than just saying it was a group of black magicians. Bury was an actual murderer who actually consorted with prostitutes and actually mutilated a woman with a knife so he too weighs far more heavily than a mystery organisation. Then there’s the fact that we can ask how many serial killers in history arranged to kill their victims in certain places to conform to a supernatural pattern? They kill for personal reasons. Because they want to...or need to.

All your examples are circumstantial evidence. No better than what I have and I have MORE than they do.

You have patterns and numbers Albie. As I’ve said before these can be found anywhere if you look hard enough. It’s very similar to people who find clues in ‘anagrams’ like Richard Wallace who nominated Lewis Carroll. If you and try hard enough these patterns and links will appear. If they are to be taken seriously they need to be backed by something more tangible.

>>I don’t believe in it because there’s nothing to make anyone believe it. That’s why no ripperologists do believe it.

>>I accept that some people believe in magic. They are mistaken.


Avoiding the question.


No it’s not. I’ve repeatedly answered. There is no evidence for magic. Just like there’s no believable evidence for statues that bleed or visions appearing.

>>If you can’t see why this isn’t evidence then there’s no point going on about it. I’ll say again...look for mystery, patterns, signs in anything and you will categorically find them. It doesn’t mean that they are real.

And? I'm doing nothing you guys aren't. Nobody knows for sure they are right.

Of course no one is certain, or at least they shouldn’t be, but what researchers do are things like evaluating witness statements (witness that we know existed) they look at timings, they evaluate named suspects applying multiple criteria. They also apply thinking to the ripper’s crimes in relation to what we know about serial killers and crime history. They research the records in an attempt to get a clearer picture of events. They look at life in the East End at the time to see how it might give us clues to behaviour and actions.

>>They are serial killer related. The rest is imagination and Venus has no more to do with the murders than ironing boards, chairs or cheese sandwiches.

Totally dismissing the facts I presented. Find the connections between the killings and ironing boards.

‘Facts’ have value Albie. That the victims were all women is a fact which has value. The fact that they murders took place in a relatively confined area might point us The the fact that the ripper lived locally and that his base might have been somewhere near the centre.

If the police were investigating these crimes today they would look at the same things that today’s researchers are. They wouldn’t be looking for black magic symbols unless of course they had a solid reason like a killer writing ‘ I love Satan’ near to a victim. Yes I’m being a bit facetious but the principal is the same.

Albie you are at liberty to form your own opinions and to believe what you will. I want to stress that I’m certainly not trying to insult you personally. I just believe that you are mistaken and that taking a ‘conspiracy’ approach can, and usually does in my opinion, lead to seeing relevance in things which have no relevance.