All Roads Lead to Dorset St.,

[Sam Flynn]

Furthermore, it seems her idea of the shed was the room below her... which was Kelly's room.

The idea of her living in the room directly above Kelly is a myth I busted some years ago (not everyone agrees, but I'm right ). Prater's room was at the front of the building, as was the shed:

"I live at 20 Room in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room [NB: not "the" room] below" (Daily Telegraph, 13th November 1888)

This is corroborated when Prater described the cry of Murder, adding that she frequently heard "such cries from the back of the lodging house [i.e. McCarthy's Rents] where the windows [NB: not "my" windows] look into Miller's Court"

[MrBarnett]

The idea of her living in the room directly above Kelly is a myth I busted some years ago (not everyone agrees, but I'm right ). Prater's room was at the front of the building, as was the shed:

"I live at 20 Room in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room [NB: not "the" room] below" (Daily Telegraph, 13th November 1888)

This is corroborated when Prater described the cry of Murder, adding that she frequently heard "such cries from the back of the lodging house [i.e. McCarthy's Rents] where the windows [NB: not "my" windows] look into Miller's Court"

By 'the lodging house' she meant 4-storied 30, DS whose rear (side) windows would have overlooked Millers Court?

[Sam Flynn]

By 'the lodging house' she meant 4-storied 30, DS whose rear (side) windows would have overlooked Millers Court?

The windows weren't described as "overlooking" but "looking into" Miller's Court, and it wouldn't have been the "back" of Number 30 facing MC, but the side, and anyone trying to "look into" Miller's Court from next-door-but-three would have had a bit of a job on their hands, given the narrowness of Miller's Court. Besides, it would have been decidedly odd if Prater had dismissed cries of "Murder!" on grounds of familiarity with such cries coming from next-door-but-three anyway.

[MrBarnett]

The windows weren't described as "overlooking" but "looking into" Miller's Court, and it wouldn't have been the "back" of Number 30 facing MC, but the front. Furthermore, any screams heard coming from that direction would surely have been described as coming from Dorset Street, not "the back of the lodging house", anyway.

Gareth,

I'm sure you are familiar with this - you posted it.



How does the front of 30 DS face MC?

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Gary

See my corrected post, and the reason for editing, above. I realised my mistake and would have corrected it straight away, but my train was pulling into the station at the time and I had to get off

[MrBarnett]

Gareth,

I'm sure you are familiar with this - you posted it.

[ATTACH]18820[/ATTACH]

How does the front of 30 DS face MC?

Ah, I see you've changed your wording. Surely the back of a building isn't just its rear wall? Your Mrs P. Seems to be somewhat pedantic about 'backs' and 'looking intos' but when she uses the term 'lodging house' she gets it wrong?

[MrBarnett]

Hello Gary

See my corrected post, and the reason for editing, above. I realised my mistake and would have corrected it straight away, but my train was pulling into the station at the time and I had to get off

Sorry, Gareth I was drafting my response before you posted this.

I don't really have a fixed opinion about this, it's just that the term lodging house seems conclusive to me at the mo.

Can't quite see from the shaded Goad how high the Zuccanis' properties were between 30, DS and MC. If they were lower, then from the side (E) elevation at the rear (back) part of the lodging house you would have been able to look into MC, no?

[Sam Flynn]

Surely the back of a building isn't just its rear wall?

It usually is, though, Gary. Besides, for Prater to describe screams coming from "where the windows [of No 30] looked into Miller's Court", the screamers would had to have been hovering 4 storeys in the air. I also doubt very much that she meant that she "frequently heard such cries coming from the side of next door but three" - and why should she, when she'd heard the cry of "Murder" appear to come from Miller's Court? It's quite clear to me that Prater meant that those cries were heard from back of the house where she lodged, 26 Dorset Street, with her room above the shed as she explicitly stated.

I've seen some folks argue that the room above Kelly's was "above the shed" vertically-speaking, so that's what Prater must have meant. However, most people wouldn't describe such an arrangement that way. The room where I'm writing is above my garage on the Y axis, but the garage is about ten yards away on the X axis; where I'm actually sitting is "above the dining room" in both X and Y coordinates, and that's how I'd describe it. I'd never dream of saying that my room is "above the garage", because my room's physical relationship to the garage carries very little descriptive value. The room "above the garage" is one of my guest bedrooms and, although it's above the dining room on the Y axis, I'd never think of describing it as "above the dining room" for the same reason.

Ditto Prater; when she said her room was "above the shed", the most obvious conclusion is that she meant just that.

Your Mrs P. Seems to be somewhat pedantic about 'backs' and 'looking intos' but when she uses the term 'lodging house' she gets it wrong?

She didn't get it wrong, as Miller's Court was a lodging house, too.

[MrBarnett]

It usually is, though, Gary. Besides, for Prater to describe screams coming from "where the windows [of No 30] looked into Miller's Court", the screamers would had to have been hovering 4 storeys in the air. I also doubt very much that she meant that she "frequently heard such cries coming from the side of next door but three" - and why should she, when she'd heard the cry of "Murder" appear to come from Miller's Court? It's quite clear to me that Prater meant that those cries were heard from back of the house where she lodged, 26 Dorset Street, with her room above the shed as she explicitly stated.

I've seen some folks argue that the room above Kelly's was "above the shed" on the Y axis, so that's what Prater must have meant - but most people wouldn't describe such an arrangement that way. The room where I'm writing this is above my garage on the Y axis, but the garage is about ten yards away on the X axis. Where I'm actually sitting is above the dining room in terms of both X and Y coordinates, and that's how I'd describe it. I'd never dream of saying that my room is "above the garage", because my physical relationship to the garage carries very little descriptive value. The room "above the garage" is one of my guest bedrooms and, although it's above the dining room on the Y axis, I'd never think of describing it as "above the dining room" for the same reason.

Ditto Prater; when she said her room was "above the shed", the most obvious conclusion is that she meant just that.She didn't get it wrong, as Miller's Court was a lodging house, too.

Not in my neck of the woods. The back of the house consists of the rooms at the rear of the house.

I'm very interested in the concept of MC being a 'lodging house'. Nothing to do with this discussion, but in connection with the Austin case. What is your basis for that description?

[Sam Flynn]

Not in my neck of the woods. The back of the house consists of the rooms at the rear of the house.

Maybe so, Gary, but when people say "the back of the house" they usually mean just that. Besides, the rooms at the rear of #26 "looked into Miller's Court" rather more unequivocally than those of #30, and furthermore all of the Miller's Court windows did, not just the ones on the upper floor.

I'm very interested in the concept of MC being a 'lodging house'. Nothing to do with this discussion, but in connection with the Austin case. What is your basis for that description?

I once posted a (near)contemporary description of the lodging houses of the East End, which defined three or four categories of lodging houses. From memory, the definition covered things like doss-houses, less grim places like the Victoria Home, and smaller establishments or houses providing rooms where people could lodge, like we have in (e.g.) MC and Hanbury Street.

That post should still be here and/or on Howard's site, but it was a few years back and I haven't found it yet, although I have tried.

[Batman]

Can you point me to the specific report, please? I can't find it.

Looks like it was six women and one man in total. Two identified her from 'The Shed.'

Daily Telegraph 3rd Oct 1888 is referenced by Begg.

In October the Daily Telegraph reported that six women and a man had been taken by the police to view the body of Catharine Eddowes and that two of the women had identified her as a woman whose name they did not know but who had frequently been without money and had slept in a shed off Dorset Street – ‘the nightly refuge of some ten to twenty houseless creatures who are without the means of paying for their beds’. - Begg, *Paul. Jack the Ripper: The Facts

[Sam Flynn]

Looks like it was six women and one man in total. Two identified her from 'The Shed.' Daily Telegraph 3rd Oct 1888 is referenced by Begg.

In October the Daily Telegraph reported that six women and a man had been taken by the police to view the body of Catharine Eddowes and that two of the women had identified her as a woman whose name they did not know but who had frequently been without money and had slept in a shed off Dorset Street – ‘the nightly refuge of some ten to twenty houseless creatures who are without the means of paying for their beds’. - Begg, *Paul. Jack the Ripper: The Facts

I'm not sure where the info about two women recognising Eddowes came from, but perhaps it's out there somewhere. It doesn't seem to appear in the transcript of that day's Telegraph on Casebook. There's a lot on this page, so perhaps I missed something:

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/daily_telegraph/dt881003.html

As I said earlier, the content relating to Eddowes is, in any case, somewhat "editorial" in nature, rather than reporting first-hand witness testimony. It's also a very early report, and these are prone to contain unreliable information and hearsay, and perhaps this is what we have with the tale of the identification of the anonymous "Shed Lady of Dorset Street".

Interestingly, I notice that the article actually refers to "a shed off Dorset Street" (which is in itself a bit ambiguous) and it certainly doesn't say that it was the shed associated with Miller's Court. As I've already noted, this would have been rather unlikely, since that "shed" wasn't a shed at all, but the front room of Number 26, where McCarthy kept his stuff.

[Batman]

I think Begg has basically taken the whole page and broken it down into identifying six women and a man who were taken to see Eddowes and two who identified her as sleeping in the shed. He says in October and not necessarily Oct 3rd, so he may be getting it from other days too, I don't know. I suspect it's all in that one page on the 3rd though. Then we have the journalists finding out later where the shed was and it looks like that it is this front from of #26 owned by McCarthy.

Given all the other ripper victims have been associated with Dorset St., and even lodging houses there, it doesn't seem far-fetched to include Eddowes.

What all of this tells me is that Dorset St., over the years would have made a perfect spot for JtR to befriend all his potential victims into trusting him. You don't do what Eddowes and Kelly did at the height of the murders without some degree of confidence in your client.

[Ginger]

I think Begg has basically taken the whole page and broken it down into identifying six women and a man who were taken to see Eddowes and two who identified her as sleeping in the shed. He says in October and not necessarily Oct 3rd, so he may be getting it from other days too, I don't know.

One could ask him.

[Sam Flynn]

You don't do what Eddowes and Kelly did at the height of the murders without some degree of confidence in your client.

Most serial killers murder people they don't know. Unfortunately, victims don't get much of a say in the matter, and many desperate and/or innocent souls carry on regardless, murder scare or not.

Anyway, Eddowes' connection with Dorset Street remains dubious, Nichols' time in the street was apparently brief and transient, and Stride was last known to live there 2 years before she was killed.

Given all the other ripper victims have been associated with Dorset St., and even lodging houses there, it doesn't seem far-fetched to include Eddowes

The point is that just about anyone of their social status might, at some time, have ended up in the doss-house capital of the East End. Seen in that light, the very fact that one or more of them lived, or passed through, Dorset Street at one time or another isn't likely to carry much significance.