Bucks Row Project

[John G]

Don't be discouraged Steve...I for one want to see what emerges from this...

Dave

I agree. And I have nothing useful to add.

[Joshua Rogan]

Pierre

I honestly have no idea, not really my area.

One would I suppose need to measure flow from a wound over a set time, that would give volume lost, how one would do this I have no idea, nor how one would use it.
You need I hate to say it a medical or forensic historian,


Steve

Percy Clarke, assistant to Dr Phillips, gave this evidence at the Pinchin St Torso inquest;

"On moving the body I found that there was a little blood underneath where the neck had lain. It was small in quantity and not clotted. The blood had oozed from the cut surface of the neck whilst lying there"

This was about half an hour after the body was discovered, but up to 36 hours after death.

[jerryd]

Percy Clarke, assistant to Dr Phillips, gave this evidence at the Pinchin St Torso inquest;

"On moving the body I found that there was a little blood underneath where the neck had lain. It was small in quantity and not clotted. The blood had oozed from the cut surface of the neck whilst lying there"

This was about half an hour after the body was discovered, but up to 36 hours after death.

Hi Joshua,

The head had been taken from the body (Pinchin torso) at a later time than the legs.

Donald Swanson states in a report to Supt. Arnold- the head which had been cut off by clean right handed cuts, the vertebrae being "jointed" left the neck with blood oozing from it, while both legs had also been "jointed", by right hand cuts, but the dismemberment had taken place at an earlier period than the head for the raw flesh had from continued exposure dried on the surface which presented a blackened appearance in consequence.


From this statement, the head could have been taken off immediately prior to the disposal or anytime between then and some time after the legs.

[Elamarna]

Hi Joshua,

The head had been taken from the body (Pinchin torso) at a later time than the legs.

Donald Swanson states in a report to Supt. Arnold- the head which had been cut off by clean right handed cuts, the vertebrae being "jointed" left the neck with blood oozing from it, while both legs had also been "jointed", by right hand cuts, but the dismemberment had taken place at an earlier period than the head for the raw flesh had from continued exposure dried on the surface which presented a blackened appearance in consequence.


From this statement, the head could have been taken off immediately prior to the disposal or anytime between then and some time after the legs.

Jerry and Joshua

This is a very useful example from the exact time.

Not sure what others make of it but I find it most illuminating.

Steve

[Robert St Devil]

what,d you expect, steve, we pelted sd vicious with hamburgers at randy,s. punk is what it is...

isn,t there some rule against two similar threads existing in the same space and time? if i recall, you were the one who was alluding to an understanding of the term oozing.

my beef is this. i watched fishs documentary too. and in my bad memory, i think i recall cross holding a cane. now i dont know if it was nothing more than a status symbol but it got me thinking that we dont really know how lechmere walked... did he limp, hobble or swagger. the best i could see was the speed estimates could only determine how fast Paul walked to Mizen and (if it was determined to be a fast rate) maybe that would determine if Cross was fast enough to keep up.

as for the upcoming oozing research, what part was oozing out that wineglass worth of blood - her head or her body?

[Varqm]

Yes to my mind there are so many misconceptions about Bucks Row.
And one can only hope to clear many of those up.

One if the reasons I am posting as 3 sections is with the first one based on maps and science And the second on actual reports it should be harder for anyone to muddy.

The final part which will be conclusion I fully expect to be wearing my steel helmet for.


I am thinking of taking a similar approach to the other murders. But time will tell


Steve

Wearing the steel helmet for the final part was too optimistic.

[Elamarna]

Wearing the steel helmet for the final part was too optimistic.

Only for one or two posters.

Actually there as been some good input. All helps.


Steve

[Elamarna]

what,d you expect, steve, we pelted sd vicious with hamburgers at randy,s. punk is what it is...

I have no idea what you are talking about Robert

isn,t there some rule against two similar threads existing in the same space and time? if i recall, you were the one who was alluding to an understanding of the term oozing.

Not that I am aware of. Have a look at the history of threads and it's clear there are often more than one thread on related subjects running at the same time.

And the two threads are actually different are they not. One is looking at the overall Bucks Row case and the second, not started by me but by another is looking at a specific area of that case.

Actually there have been many posts discussing oozing over the years this is just one more.

my beef is this. i watched fishs documentary too. and in my bad memory, i think i recall cross holding a cane. now i dont know if it was nothing more than a status symbol but it got me thinking that we dont really know how lechmere walked... did he limp, hobble or swagger. the best i could see was the speed estimates could only determine how fast Paul walked to Mizen and (if it was determined to be a fast rate) maybe that would determine if Cross was fast enough to keep up.

I don't recall any such information as his needing a cane ever being mentioned, but perhaps others can clear that up.
If that were the case it would ask very serious questions about the very idea of Lechmere as the killed.
I have actually said we can have no idea of how he walked and so have provided a broad range.

We know where Lechmere was going and how far it was. And we have an approximate time for his leaving home and what time he was due there. We can estimate a range of speeds for that journey.

In addition we have Paul's estimates of how long it took to get to Mizen which is not that far out from the figures given in the thread. And such allows other estimates to be made with regards to both Neil and Mizen.

as for the upcoming oozing research, what part was oozing out that wineglass worth of blood - her head or her body?

Robert where do you get wineglass from, certainly far more blood than that reported.
And it does not matter which body or neck the same applies.

To use your term I really do not see what your beef is?

First of all you say it's boring; then you suggest it is not reliable as we cannot estimate speed.
Of course you are entitled to your view, you don't like the thread.
So be it. One cannot please everyone; And actually did not set out to please anyone.

Thank you for your comments on Lechmere.

Cheers

Steve

[Mayerling]

A very interesting bit of research and care here Steve. I really don't believe I'd the patience to figure out the distance possibilities or speed possibilities myself. I'm just too lazy.

But I have one interesting thought. What was the temperature that early morning at Buck's Row? It struck me that if it was cold, or warm or whatever, it would dictate the amount of clothing worn by the participants in the events - and this might delay them leaving their homes (Lechmere, the Doctor) and even slightly affect their speeds.

If anyone can explain what the temperature was just let us know.

Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

Some info about weather here, Jeff;

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html

Apparently the temp dropped to 48.8 degrees F in Whitechapel that night. Which is about 9 degrees Centigrade.

[Pierre]

A very interesting bit of research and care here Steve. I really don't believe I'd the patience to figure out the distance possibilities or speed possibilities myself. I'm just too lazy.

But I have one interesting thought. What was the temperature that early morning at Buck's Row? It struck me that if it was cold, or warm or whatever, it would dictate the amount of clothing worn by the participants in the events - and this might delay them leaving their homes (Lechmere, the Doctor) and even slightly affect their speeds.

If anyone can explain what the temperature was just let us know.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

yes, and while we´re at it, perhaps someone knows if Lechmere shaved before he left, if he had breakfast at home and if he stopped for a drink or two on his way to work.

Pierre

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff,

yes, and while we´re at it, perhaps someone knows if Lechmere shaved before he left, if he had breakfast at home and if he stopped for a drink or two on his way to work.

Pierre

Welcome back Pierre,

Actually, if Lechmere was headed for work, I'd imagine he did such things as shaving or breakfasting (not so sure about the early morning drinking). It was the roused doctor that I wondered about regarding how he quickly got out to examine the corpse.

Jeff

[Elamarna]

Welcome back Pierre,

Actually, if Lechmere was headed for work, I'd imagine he did such things as shaving or breakfasting (not so sure about the early morning drinking). It was the roused doctor that I wondered about regarding how he quickly got out to examine the corpse.

Jeff

Hi Jeff

Yes it's a real unknown how long it to Llewellyn to get ready, pure guesswork to my way of thinking. Assume he wouldn't shave or wash more than hands or face but that's it.

Allowing up to 5 minutes in the work but could have been more.

Am still happy with 3.5 mph for lechmere as no-one as so far put forward a reasoned counter suggestion. And of course it should be stressed that 3mph is not slow but average walking speed today, there is a fair argument that it was slower in 1888.



Steve

[Elamarna]

Some info about weather here, Jeff;

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html

Apparently the temp dropped to 48.8 degrees F in Whitechapel that night. Which is about 9 degrees Centigrade.

Hi Joshua

Thanks for that info. Probably safe to assume that he would have put a coat on at that temperature.

Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

A coat seems reasonable, Steve, as Llewellyn could grab that and put it on as he walked. Whether he would have needed - or taken the time - to layer up with vests, waistcoats, jackets etc., with a PC waiting to escort him to the murder scene, is another matter.
There was virtually no rain that night, hence PC Thain not needing to wear his cloak, but there had been a thunderstorm the previous afternoon. And generally it seems to have been very rainy around that time (but then, it is England), as this clip suggests;

Lloyds Weekly 2nd Sept
"FRESH FLOODS IN THE EAST-END.
As a consequence of the heavy rains of the past few days there has been a renewal of the floods in the East-end of London, and on Wednesday many of the inhabitants of the Isle of Dogs, Plaistow, and Stratford were again compelled to leave their houses. The West Ham fire brigade were called out at an early hour to pump out the water in the basements and cellars. The great tract of grass land lying east of Stratford was again submerged, the cattle and pigs finding nothing but a mere fringe of grass to feed upon. Wanstead-flats were in parts almost impassable. The crops in Essex have been seriously damaged by Tuesday's and Wednesday's rain, and much of the wheat which had been stacked will be unfit for use."

This period of heavy rain also seems to have been what led to the terrible hop harvest that year.