Who Chose the Murder Sites?

[spyglass]

OK, same thing I asked MR-whats your theory?

Hi,
Well I'm still working on it but here's some pointers without going into minute details. ( I'm writing this on a phone )
Let's assume that JTR killed only four and that the killer was either caught or known after the double event.
However it was in some of the one's interest to keep the scare going, and so needed at least one more murder by the hand of the ripper.
Let's for example you were going to fake one.
Problems would arise of doing an outside murder and would at least take time to plan (say about just over 5 weeks )
Then of course you couldn't really murder anyone but you would need a victim ....enter Dr Bond about now.
Then you make the victim un-recognisable so identification is impossible, you can say it's whoever you want, who would doubt it?
Of course certain people are in on it and payed quite well, however Kelly nearly messes things up by coming back to the scene and being seen. The cry or sigh of "oh murder" is her coming back at the wrong time ( it's enough to make one vomit right up to early next morning )
Whether she was seen or not is enough to panic the police, so let's throw people of the scent by introducing Hutchinson and he's tailor made statement, let's make the inquest about 5 MINS long in the wrong jurisdiction under a former Policeman watching over the whole affair.
Now the police can't tell the whole world that they caught him because if they had him, then how did he kill Kelly, and also in a court case it would look strange pleading guilty to four but not five. In fact there would be plenty of problems with announcing the killer.
poor old Warren, enough to make you resign the night before.

There's plenty more I can add but am trying to keep it simple but will leave you with this.
Remember the key fiasco. ..it was if everyone on sight expected someone to have it, and like that classic scene from Laurel and Hardy..." I gave it to him to give to you to give to him "
Even the best Laid plans can end in farce.

I got you intrested now Lol!

Regards.

[John Wheat]

Who was Jack then Bury?

I'll take that as a yes then. Because there's no other suspect that comes close to Bury.

[Pierre]

QUOTE=Fisherman;402729

[/B]
"Maybe you should try and link her with Lechmere instead of poo-pooing what others suggest as possible scenarios."

I have done so. Dorset Street was a short cut from the Hanbury Street route to Pickfords. And she may well have died at the time Lechmere would have passed.

"Hi, there! Just popping in to do some cutting! Iīll soon be off to work!".

No, Fisherman. The murder of Kelly was the most important murder he committed. It was well planned.

[Abby Normal]

What speaks against Kelly using her place for business? Isnīt it the same there - we just donīt know? I find that if it was common practice to use the rooms for prostitution, the logical thing to expect would be that Kelly did it too. Not when under the care of Barnett, though.

Blotchy is a client in my eyes. He seems to be a classical punter, picked up in a nearby pub.

Hi Fish

What speaks against Kelly using her place for business? Isnīt it the same there - we just donīt know?

right we don't know either way. this is why I lean no:

she had recently been living with Barnett there. don't think shes going to bring clients home, or even prostituting, while she was with him.

he said he was upset with her letting her prostitute friends sleep there. NOT that she was bringing clients home.

there is no evidence, witness testimony or otherwise that she did.

the general saying-"don't **** where you eat".

Blotchy is a client in my eyes. He seems to be a classical punter, picked up in a nearby pub.

not to me.
I think the circumstances lead to her knowing him even if loosely.
Does a prostitute client relationship usually involve, singing, drinking together, hanging out in ones room for a while? maybe grabbing a bite to eat? not to me it dosnt. it seems more like she knew this guy, liked him and possibly looking for a new boyfriend sugar daddy having recently broken up with Barnett.

But I admit she could have used her room for prostitution and blotchy could have been strictly a client, I just lean towrd no. no bigee.

[Fisherman]

I'm just saying all things considered it dosnt appear that mary was in the habit of using her place for business. she may have though.

But I think blotchy was an acquaintance, perhaps she was looking for a new sugar daddy/boyfriend. not strictly a client.

What speaks against Kelly using her place for business? Isnīt it the same there - we just donīt know? I find that if it was common practice to use the rooms for prostitution, the logical thing to expect would be that Kelly did it too. Not when under the care of Barnett, though.

Blotchy is a client in my eyes. He seems to be a classical punter, picked up in a nearby pub.

[Abby Normal]

Hi,
I wouldn't trust Hutchinson statement, as it was clearly written for him.
I would also suggest that MJK wasn't murdered by the ripper ( I'm guessing she wasn't murdered at all ) but let's just say 13 Millers court was almost certainly picked out for various reasons by someone/someone's in authority.

Regards

OK, same thing I asked MR-whats your theory?

[Abby Normal]

Then again, there is an article saying that the prostitutes of Millers Court were free to entertain clients in their rooms and did so.
Why would Kelly deviate in this respect?

I'm just saying all things considered it dosnt appear that mary was in the habit of using her place for business. she may have though.

But I think blotchy was an acquaintance, perhaps she was looking for a new sugar daddy/boyfriend. not strictly a client.

[Abby Normal]

A possibility, I admit that. But it would be a very unsheltered sleeping place. I would have expected her to know better places to sleep.
If she DID sleep rough there (she was intoxicated, as per Emily Holland, and maybe did ot care all that much), she makes for a possible parallel with Tabram, who may well have been sleeping rough in George Yard.

Who knows?

I agree, and if she was wasted (and tired), she may have just passed out where she was.

[Abby Normal]

Oh, you know, that murders that vary quite a bit in terms of actions taken by the killer, venues and motivations are connected anyway because someone just guessed they were,.... that "he" forgoes his trademark actions only on some kills,.... that his skill and knowledge using a knife is variable depending on the day,... that he has specific targets, then for no reason, he doesn't,...that having a possible motive for the murder isn't as probable as a murderer without any...those kinds of things.

The entire legend of a Jack the Ripper is based upon speculation, opinion and guesswork Jon, you know it, I know it, and anyone who has put in the time knows it too. Some prefer to propagate that dogma rather than really address the foundations of some of the principle problems within it....the varied methodology, victimology, knowledge, and skill,...as well as the juxtapositioning of other known killers to this same area including terrorists. I believe the big story that Fall was the Parnell Commission, and its been held in the shadow of a very long standing urban myth.

Ok well then how is the commission related to the ripper murders? how does it tie in to your idea that there was more than one killer.

whats your theory?

[Fisherman]

well I agree with this

Then again, there is an article saying that the prostitutes of Millers Court were free to entertain clients in their rooms and did so.
Why would Kelly deviate in this respect?

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish
what if he came upon her dozing against the gate?
it would answer any of the (time)problems of having to search for a victim in whitechapel road, a venue seemingly not on his normal route to work?

A possibility, I admit that. But it would be a very unsheltered sleeping place. I would have expected her to know better places to sleep.
If she DID sleep rough there (she was intoxicated, as per Emily Holland, and maybe did ot care all that much), she makes for a possible parallel with Tabram, who may well have been sleeping rough in George Yard.

Who knows?

[Abby Normal]

There has never been a story, article, or just as hearsay by a friend, that Mary Kelly ever took a client into her room in Millers Court, and in fact she was living with a male partner until the end of Oct and a roommate until the Tuesday of her last week.

well I agree with this

[Abby Normal]

Thanks for this Christer, it is always nice to bounce an idea off someone.

I note your point about the killer possibly picking Nichols up somewhere and moving into Bucks Row to have sex.

It just doesn't feel right to me.
The venue is far too open for a prostitute to entertain a client there.

I think it possible that she was heading for the Roebuck Pub, to try her luck there, and if unsuccessful, turning right at the top of Bucks Row and heading
along Brady Street and then back down Whitechapel Road to try her luck in the numerous pubs there.

I really think this murder has a lot to tell us, if we could only figure it out.

And to be fair, maybe you've gone some way towards that.
Good luck with the book.

Hi Barn
as I pointed out to Fish, maybe after she went out looking for doss money, not finding any clients, she was sleeping rough in bucks row when lech came upon her . it would answer a lot of questions, especially what she was doing in the long period of time since she was last seen alive nearby and when her body was "discovered".

[Abby Normal]

Well, to begin with, I think we may need to opt for Whitechapel Road as the more likely place where Nichols was picked up by the killer. Looking for business in Bucks Row seems to have been a forlorn cause, given the fact that the back streets and alleys were deserted in the area.
If this is true, then Nichols could have entered Bucks Row from either the western or the eastern inlet, so itīs hard to say in which direction she and the killer walked. I tend to guess that they came from the west, because I think if they came up Brady Street, there would have been closer venues to do the business than the doorway outside Browns.

Nichols, Stride, Eddowes and MacKenzie were all found near wooden doors/fences, and it has been speculated that prostitutes used them to lean against when performing their services - they supposedly provided a less rough ride during sex. So if Nichols had led the killer to the spot herself, for sex, then he may have taken advantage of the moment she lifted her clothing, and grabbed her by the throat. The bruising - on the lower part of the jaw on the right side of the face and on the left side of the face itself - seems to tally well with her having been gripped by the throat from the front. After that, she will have been lowered to the ground.
The bruise on the lower part of the jaw was, according to Llewellyns suggestion, seemingly that of a thumb. If so, it would indicate the killer using his right hand to throttle Nichols. That in itīs turn indicates right-handedness on his behalf. To me, that is consistent with how Nichols was lowered to the ground with her head facing eastwards - the left arm would have acted as a support while the right hand steered the action, always clenched around the neck.
Once she was on the ground, he will have whipped the knife out and set about cutting her.

Thatīs my best guess anyhow!

Hi Fish
what if he came upon her dozing against the gate?
it would answer any of the (time)problems of having to search for a victim in whitechapel road, a venue seemingly not on his normal route to work?

[Abby Normal]

After reading the article you referred me to in Ripperologist 146, I've become 50/50 on the Hutchison statement.

Hi Dan
Do you mean on the truthfulness of his story of A-man?

or the possibility that hutch is a viable suspect and/or aussie hutch is a good fit for witness hutch and/or the ripper???

is 50/50 better or worse than you thought before???