Who Chose the Murder Sites?

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Harry,

1.Whitechapel was a small, overcrowded slum, so for the victims to live in close proximity to one another is nothing out of the ordinary. And Eddowes didn't give Miller's Court as her address. If she had, you might be onto something, but all that would prove is that Eddowes was familiar with MJK. It wouldn't give a political bent to the murders.


2. Apart from the majority of the medical opinion which found this to be the work of the same killer, and the police investigating a lone suspect.

As for #1, if you were to check the statistics for the number of Unfortunates living within the East End at that time it might explain how people could live in a small crowded area and still not know each other. As for the aliases, I wont belabor the point that having a murder victim use aliases which include the full name and partial address of the subsequent victim, supposedly by the same killer, is oddly coincidental and perhaps significant to the investigations.

#2, the man that saw and/or examined 4 of the 5 victims, the ONLY physician to do so, saw great differences with Liz Strides wounds and the skill and knowledge used by Kates killer. I don't find it difficult to accept the opinion of someone who saw firsthand the wounds we discuss, only the opinion of someone who critiques that opinion without any direct examination having been done.

All that links Polly Nichols murder to Mary Kellys is opinion, hardly a case closed scenario.

[Abby Normal]

To Spy and Michael Richards

thank you for fleshing out your ideas for me on the connection with the special branch, conspiracy stuff.

I don't put much into, mainly because I don't think there is any evidence there was a connection.

The only thing is that there was a file in the special branch ledgers on the WC murders correct?

[Michael W Richards]

There is a news report that states Chapman and Kelly were friends. Haven't found another report to corroborate that one yet, though.

Hi Jerry,

I think Crossinghams has the potential as a meeting place for the above, or for Kate as well. Dorset street was a common denominator for some victims. My point is that there has been no connection between any of them proven, although as I say, its not inconceivable that Dorset brought some together.

[Elamarna]

Hi,
Well my intrest goes back to reading Nick Warren's chapter in the Mammoth book of JTR., that led me on to reading up on the Phoenix Park murders and then on to what was going on with the irsh troubles and London at those times.
let us not forget that it would seem that Special Branch did have more than a passing intrest I'm the case.

Regards.

Hi Spyglass thank you so much for the reply.

I am prepared to consider that it is a possibility there was some link, Simon keeps hinting but gives no details.

Am aware of all the issues there were over Ireland, I just wanted to know what specifically suggests a link, or possible link to you, other than Kelly being Irish?

Just don't see it at present.


Steve

[jerryd]

not one Canonical victim has ever been directly linked with another victim

There is a news report that states Chapman and Kelly were friends. Haven't found another report to corroborate that one yet, though.

[Harry D]

As for #1, the fact that you don't see how using the names and addresses of about 95% of Marys complete name and address.... the next victim in the supposed run of Jacky's....might be considered too coincidental isn't a problem we share. Its very odd considering how short the alledged list is and the fact that she is the next name on that list.

Whitechapel was a small, overcrowded slum, so for the victims to live in close proximity to one another is nothing out of the ordinary. And Eddowes didn't give Miller's Court as her address. If she had, you might be onto something, but all that would prove is that Eddowes was familiar with MJK. It wouldn't give a political bent to the murders.

In case you need a refresher in this study, not one Canonical victim has ever been directly linked with another victim, let alone by killer, despite many decades of assuming so. So assume away...youre in a pretty deeply grooved road that leads nowhere.

Apart from the majority of the medical opinion which found this to be the work of the same killer, and the police investigating a lone suspect.

[Michael W Richards]

1.Eddowes was living with John Kelly at the time of her murder. Mary Ann was the name of his wife, and a common name for women at that time. Either Cate assumed that as an alias or she gave a fake name to the fuzz for the same reason she gave a fake address. Why jump to conspiracy when there are perfectly innocent explanations?


2. Apart from the women killed within a small localized area with a similar MO and post-mortem signature, you mean?

As for #1, the fact that you don't see how using the names and addresses of about 95% of Marys complete name and address.... the next victim in the supposed run of Jacky's....might be considered too coincidental isn't a problem we share. Its very odd considering how short the alledged list is and the fact that she is the next name on that list.

Similar MO, differing Victimologies and varied PM activities do not magically lead to a single source, no matter how trivial or explainable you believe evidence to be.

In case you need a refresher in this study, not one Canonical victim has ever been directly linked with another victim, let alone by killer, despite many decades of assuming so. So assume away...youre in a pretty deeply grooved road that leads nowhere.

[Harry D]

I know...just coincidence huh? I doubt it...I think it hints that Kate at least knew of Mary, but didn't want to lead anyone directly to her by the alias. Maybe Kate was killed because someone thought she was Kelly based on the names used.

Eddowes was living with John Kelly at the time of her murder. Mary Ann was the name of his wife, and a common name for women at that time. Either Cate assumed that as an alias or she gave a fake name to the fuzz for the same reason she gave a fake address. Why jump to conspiracy when there are perfectly innocent explanations?

I could use the same sarcastic rhetoric when addressing someone who thinks that 5 women are connected by a killer when zero evidence exists to prove that.

Apart from the women killed within a small localized area with a similar MO and post-mortem signature, you mean?

[spyglass]

Hi Spyglass

You are not alone in that view, several seem to have the same leaning, but never explain why.

Could you say why you have this feeling? what is it based on?

Not being argumentative, would just like to know.

cheers


Steve

Hi,
Well my intrest goes back to reading Nick Warren's chapter in the Mammoth book of JTR., that led me on to reading up on the Phoenix Park murders and then on to what was going on with the irsh troubles and London at those times.
let us not forget that it would seem that Special Branch did have more than a passing intrest I'm the case.

Regards.

[Michael W Richards]

All very congenial, in a sense - but a lot more fiction than fact to me. I am still wondering what parallel examples there are of women/streetwalkers being bumped off, one by one, in order to keep some sort of conspiracy or some secret under wraps.
I am not naive enough to think that people are never killed to silence them, but with all the eviscerations and such going on, I think it is a fair bet that we are looking at something else than Mi5 here.

Just to "bolster" my suggestion Fisherman, lets look at what kind of money was at stake for some of the Double Agents...how about a witness asking for 10,000L to testify at the hearings? In todays currency,...using a scale that Sam Flynn gave me a few years back, (20L in 1888 equating to approx. 1500L Sterling in 2010), that's almost 3/4 of a million in todays money.

How many people would kill to protect that kind of money in London in 1888? How many would blackmail someone to get some of the money floating about these agencies and self rule organizations.? How many government people would lose careers and livelihoods if it became public knowledge that they had terrorists on HM payroll, some who were involved in the Jubillee Bomb Plot on the Queen the year before? What would happen if the general public learned about these deals with terrorists? Think anyone who lost family to local bombings would be angry?

My point is this...knowledge of senior members of the most secretive agencies in the government having terrorists on the gov't payroll could have brought down the government, let alone just the Security agencies involved. Lots of people had dangerous secrets that could have been exposed at that same time that Fall.

Why must we put all our eggs in an unproven serial killer premise when solid motives for murder abound in some of these cases?

[Michael W Richards]

Eddowes gave this name upon her release from custody. Are you supposing that it was intercepted by the conspirators and she was assassinated within the hour? That's a fast turnaround! Or perhaps a vulnerable woman wandering the streets happened to run into a bloodthirsty serial killer fresh from his last victim?

Harry, I never said that this alias name choosing situation resulted in Eddowes murder. As I said, she used an alias twice in 24 hours, and using the 2 names given and addresses the following can be found...Mary Jane Kelly _6 Dorset Street. I know...just coincidence huh? I doubt it...I think it hints that Kate at least knew of Mary, but didn't want to lead anyone directly to her by the alias. Maybe Kate was killed because someone thought she was Kelly based on the names used.

Kate Eddowes knew Irish factions through Conway, Mary may well have known some through her own supposed background.

I could use the same sarcastic rhetoric when addressing someone who thinks that 5 women are connected by a killer when zero evidence exists to prove that.

[Harry D]

There is a tendency to fictionalize MJK's murder, owing to the circumstances behind it (her mutilation beyond recognition, her mysterious past, and the conflicting witness reports). People want to reinvent the wheel where the Ripper murders are concerned. It's not enough that a series of women were brutally slain and eviscerated before MJK's murder. This is what happens when said individual is afforded the time and privacy to explore his wanton desires. Not only that, but by all accounts he was dealing with a much finer specimen than his previous forays had turned up.

[Elamarna]

More like Special Branch at this time.

I agree about the first four victims, but have a feeling MJK was mixed up in something.

Hi Spyglass

You are not alone in that view, several seem to have the same leaning, but never explain why.

Could you say why you have this feeling? what is it based on?

Not being argumentative, would just like to know.

cheers


Steve

[spyglass]

All very congenial, in a sense - but a lot more fiction than fact to me. I am still wondering what parallel examples there are of women/streetwalkers being bumped off, one by one, in order to keep some sort of conspiracy or some secret under wraps.
I am not naive enough to think that people are never killed to silence them, but with all the eviscerations and such going on, I think it is a fair bet that we are looking at something else than Mi5 here.

More like Special Branch at this time.

I agree about the first four victims, but have a feeling MJK was mixed up in something.

[Fisherman]

I have not used data concerning modern serial killers Fisherman to validate or explain any incongruities or inconsistencies from murder to murder, I don't see anything that suggests that more than 3 Canonicals should be linked to a single killer. Granted that meets the criteria for the label, but I don't see evidence that suggests to me an ongoing run from late August to November.

Here is where I see the backstories perhaps colliding....with Irish self rule groups and/or individuals. I see a direct link with one victim, and a possible link via Paris with another. Paris being a hotspot during those years for both English counter espionage folks as well as senior self rule figures. I believe its possible that 2 Canonicals died because of their link to, or knowledge of such individuals. Oddly enough they are consecutive victims, and the first victim used almost the exact name and address of the subsequent victim as aliases in her last 24 hours.

All very congenial, in a sense - but a lot more fiction than fact to me. I am still wondering what parallel examples there are of women/streetwalkers being bumped off, one by one, in order to keep some sort of conspiracy or some secret under wraps.
I am not naive enough to think that people are never killed to silence them, but with all the eviscerations and such going on, I think it is a fair bet that we are looking at something else than Mi5 here.