Quick question about Buck's Row

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Trying to understand the geography of the place.

If I understand the map correctly, a few meters East from where poor Polly was found, is some kind of overpass, right?

How dangerous would it be to jump on the tracks, as a way to escape the scene of the crime? (I'm not promoting the idea, again, just trying to understand the location.)

Thank you.
Hope everyone is having a lovely summer, except the Aussies, because, well, it's not.

[Joshua Rogan]

Good question, I've often wondered that too.
If the railway tracks that ran below were in a cutting with sloped sides, it might have been possible, but from what I can tell, it is more or less a vertical drop now. Not sure about in 1888 though. Here is a Google Streetview snap from the road in front of the murder site.

[Yabs]

another image from a different angle.

Funny you should mention trains, are there any archives of train times in the area for 1888 or thereabouts?
I google searched for this the other day without success

[drstrange169]

Police considered the idea at the time. They looked for marks on the wall to see if somebody had scaled it. They also checked the railway line for signs of someone escaping that way.

Doesn't mean the killer did not escape that way, just that they found no evidence of it.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Thanks for the pictures. It's clearer now.

And thank you DrStrange for the precision about police research.

[Joshua Rogan]

If I remember correctly, one of the residents of Buck's Row mentioned hearing a goods train at around the time of the murder. Are you thinking that the killer escaped by performing a death defying leap into a handy open box car full of hay or soft furnishings as the train passed underneath?

[Robert]

Perhaps the murderer met the fate of Alec Guinness at the end of "The Ladykillers."

[Roy Corduroy]

The Echo 6 Sept (from the Press Report here on Casebook click )

"It has been ascertained that on the morning of the date of the murder a goods train passed on the East London Railway at about half-past three - the 3.7 out from New-cross - which was probably the time when Mary Ann Nicholls was either killed or placed in Buck's-row."

'Whitechapel' is at Buck's Row on the map. So 'out from New-cross' means the train was heading north to "Shoreditch."

[harry]

Were there any short cuts from Winthrop Street to Bucks Row.They ran parallel until merging.The witness Mulshaw was reported as night watching premises in Winthrop Street,and only about thirty yards,in a direct line,from the murder scene of Nichols.He reported he heard nothing.

[Billiou]

I think the railway "overpass" under Buck's Row/Winthrop St was added after 1888.

[Joshua Rogan]

I can't see any, Harry. It seems to have been a more or less solid block of back to back houses between Buck's Row and Winthrop St. I suppose it might have been possible to cut through the houses as in Hanbury St, but you'd still have to climb over a fence between the yards.
The only possible cut-ways would be either side of the railway. There may hvave been a back entrance to the stable yard, but I think the front gates were locked, weren't they? Which leaves only a possible route between the railway and the board school. Not sure if this would have been accessible either, though a daring killer might have been able to walk along the top of the wall above the tracks, thus bypassing any fences or gates.

[Joshua Rogan]

I think the railway "overpass" under Buck's Row/Winthrop St was added after 1888.

What makes you say that, Billiou? It seems clear from contemporary reports that the railway was there (thanks Roy for the Echo source). Whitechapel Station on the East London railway line (grey on Roy's map) was opened in 1876. The District railway line running from the City (the blueish one) was opened in 1884. However, this line terminated there and wasn't extended eastward to Stepney and beyond until 1902 - is this what you're thinking of?

[Billiou]

What makes you say that, Billiou? It seems clear from contemporary reports that the railway was there (thanks Roy for the Echo source). Whitechapel Station on the East London railway line (grey on Roy's map) was opened in 1876. The District railway line running from the City (the blueish one) was opened in 1884. However, this line terminated there and wasn't extended eastward to Stepney and beyond until 1902 - is this what you're thinking of?

I was mistaken. After reviewing all the facts ie maps, forums and the dissertation "The Riddle of New Cottage", I realise that some maps had given me the wrong impression of what the area around Buck's Row was like in 1888, and the wrong impression of where the murder actually took place.

I now realise that the murder happened at least 4 houses further eastward along Buck's Row than what I thought ie House #6 is New Cottage with the Stable Yard adjoining it to the west.

[Joshua Rogan]

Mmm, I see. I suppose it is quite confusing, what with the demolition of some houses to make way for the railway, the renumbering when Buck's Row became Durward Street, and the subsequent demolition of New Cottage and it's neighbour by the Luftwaffe.
Here is the Goad map from 1899, showing the entrance to the stable yard (where Polly was discovered) between the railway and no.2 Durward St (New Cottage in 1888).

[Billiou]

Mmm, I see. I suppose it is quite confusing, what with the demolition of some houses to make way for the railway, the renumbering when Buck's Row became Durward Street, and the subsequent demolition of New Cottage and it's neighbour by the Luftwaffe.
Here is the Goad map from 1899, showing the entrance to the stable yard (where Polly was discovered) between the railway and no.2 Durward St (New Cottage in 1888).

Thanks. I think I was most confused by the post that included two maps side by side, the 1873 Ordnance Survey Map and the 1894 Ordnance Survey Map. It lists the house numbers for 1873 and includes an arrow indicating Brown's Stable Yard at #1. People should be aware that this is incorrect (the arrow should be transferred to the 1894 Map) and should be ignored.