Double Event Timings etc...

[Errata]

Could Catherine have eaten something in addition to breakfast and her supposed drinkingt? The matter is described as feculent, and breakfast was her last known meal before going to jail. If it's more sizeable then her meager breakfast, then we now have a woman who has earned enough money to eat & drink since leaving Kelly.
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Where did the farinaceous powder in her stomach come from? Catherine doesn't have any money. What are her options between the jail-house and MSq? The jail's kitchen, soup kitchen, club kitchen, infirm kitchen, church kitchen...

Average time in the stomach for food is five hours. So she would have to have eaten since breakfast, I think.

[Rosella]

I don't know how much a baked potato from a stall cost in 1888, but it seems to have been a popular food in Victorian England among the very poor. If Kate had fancied a potato or two along with the drink she consumed before she was arrested then she must have somehow got hold of a few pennies. Perhaps, like Polly Nichols, she had drunk her bed money away several times.

[Bridewell]

How long was the MSq beat to walk for the constable?

Monty will know the exact length of time but from (fallible) memory of what he has posted previously Watkin's beat was 14 minutes per circuit.

[Bridewell]

Just a couple of random thoughts:

If the same killer killed both women, and was a psychopath, there is no need for any interruption theory. Stride could have been murdered as a distraction technique, pure and simple.

Alternatively, might he have broken off from Stride because he had arranged to meet someone (Eddowes?) and was running late? (Pure conjecture of course).

If there was a 'Jack' and Eddowes was specifically targeted (which I think has been suggested?) might the reason for JtR committing a murder in the City simply be that that's where he knew Eddowes to be?

[Bridewell]

Just breaking away from timings for a moment; if you draw a straight line from the Stride murder site through the (admittedly dubious) Church Street sighting and another from the Eddowes murder site through the GSG location the two lines intersect on Flower & Dean St, which seems as likely a location as any for the killer's home base (N.B. I have nobody in mind when I say that ).

[Joshua Rogan]

I thought it was Church Lane, not Church Street? But as it happens they are both on the same line from Berner Street so it probably doesn't matter.

[Joshua Rogan]

Average time in the stomach for food is five hours. So she would have to have eaten since breakfast, I think.

Dr Brown's post-mortem comments;

"I removed the content of the stomach and placed it in a jar for further examination. There seemed very little in it in the way of food or fluid, but from the cut end partly digested farinaceous food escaped."

[Robert St Devil]

There were 2 ,things, in her tract:

1. The farinaceous food - maybe some type of ,meal, or soup eaten within the hour just prior to leaving jail (if the jail had a kitchen that offered food) or after leaving jail

2. The feculent matter - something eaten from an earlier time, prior to her arrest. Either her breakfast, or she ate again between breakfast and being arrested.

I wasn,t sure if that was what you were alluding to, Josh, in your post.

[Albert]

Is it possible that the killer was a regular user of the prostitues in Whitechapel? He would then be familiar with the favoured locations of the women and could also explain why they were not so concerned about their safety as they might have been with a stranger. Following on from this, he may have only killed them when all the conditions were right for him, if they weren't he would just complete his 'business' and move off, maybe offering to meet them again next week or whenever. Just a thought.
Regards
Albert

[DJA]

Dr Brown's post-mortem comments;

"I removed the content of the stomach and placed it in a jar for further examination. There seemed very little in it in the way of food or fluid, but from the cut end partly digested farinaceous food escaped."

The stomach empties after three or four hours.

The floury food may have been in the Duodenum which would make sense as "the cut end".

Seems Kate was fed some soup thickened with flour in jail.

[Bridewell]

I thought it was Church Lane, not Church Street? But as it happens they are both on the same line from Berner Street so it probably doesn't matter.

Apologies. Yes, you're right. I was working from memory - always dangerous!

[Joshua Rogan]

Monty will know the exact length of time but from (fallible) memory of what he has posted previously Watkin's beat was 14 minutes per circuit.

Your memory's not totally shot!

Edward Watkin, No. 881 of the City Police, said: "I was on duty at Mitre-square on Saturday night. I have been in the force seventeen years. I went on duty at 9.45 upon my regular beat. That extends from Duke-street, Aldgate, through Heneage-lane, a portion of Bury-street, through Cree-lane, into Leadenhall-street, along eastward into Mitre-street, then into Mitre-square, round the square again into Mitre-street, then into King-street to St. James's-place, round the place, then into Duke-street, where I started from. That beat takes twelve or fourteen minutes. I had been patrolling the beat continually from ten o'clock at night until one o'clock on Sunday morning."

[Joshua Rogan]

The stomach empties after three or four hours.

The floury food may have been in the Duodenum which would make sense as "the cut end".

Seems Kate was fed some soup thickened with flour in jail.

The farinaceous food could be many things; not just flour, but pastry, porridge, potato, seeds, bread, etc.
A liquid would leave the stomach more quickly than bulkier food, so might be soup at the police station, or an earlier, more substantial meal. Difficult to tell.
The fact that it was described as 'partly digested' leads me to think it was more substantial than a thickened soup. But opinion may differ. Personally, I'd think that if the police were in the habit of feeding more than a cup of tea to every drunk who they locked up for a few hours there would be a queue at the door.

The fecal matter might have been breakfast, or a meal from the day before (presumably from the proceeds of the boot-pawning) as full 'transit' can take 30-40 hours, apparently. Who knew?

[Robert St Devil]

DJA: i was getting ready to send out a rescue party for you. Thought you may have got ,stuck, in woop woop, but figured you were probably allan quartermaining it in some outback somewhere.

JOSHUA: Elizabeth,s pm also shows farinaceous powder in her stomach. Do you think cachous would be considered farinaceous? Also, i think you may be right about the jail having a queue if ppl knew that you could get a cup o,soup while being locked up.

I,ve wondered if yhe portion of her intestine that was removed was accidentally cut when her body was cut open, spilling the feces into the abdomen. I,m trying to locate the thread that had the discussion of the feculent matter being sizeable.

[Joshua Rogan]

I don't think the cachous could be described as farinaceous, as that means starchy or mealy. I'm not an expert on Victorian lozenges, but I think cachous were sugary pills for sweetening the breath.

As for the intestine, it's possible it was cut accidentally when the abdomen was opened, but as all the intestines were disturbed and relocated, not easy to say for sure. The lower intestine would have contained the most feculent matter, and cutting that out certainly released some;

"The intestines were drawn out to a large extent and placed over the right shoulder -- they were smeared over with some feculent matter. A piece of about two feet was quite detached from the body and placed between the body and the left arm, apparently by design."

And, from the autopsy;

"The intestines had been detached to a large extent from the mesentery. About two feet of the colon was cut away. The sigmoid flexure was invaginated into the rectum very tightly."