Sergeant Stephen White

[Robert]

Certainly the man with glow worm eyes seems to have had no trace of a foreign accent.

[Chris]

I would be inclined ,since Abberline was the lead, hands on, detective in the Ripper investigation ,to rate Inspector Abberline"s word against Sims ,the journalist in this matter.

It's not really a question of rating Abberline's word against Sims's, because all Abberline is saying is that he thinks Chapman fits the descriptions given at the time - not, as Sims is, that a witness saw a suspect and said he matched the man he had seen (in some respects).

Surely the origin of Sims's statement is to be found in Macnaghten's statement about Kosminski (in the Aberconway draft): "This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City P.C. near Mitre Square."

Regarding White, though, I do think it's worth bearing in mind what appears to be another report of the same incident from the East London Advertiser, posted by Rob above (http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...95&postcount=1), which definitely states "He saw no man anywhere". This suggests to me that - while there may be a grain of truth somewhere in the story - the claim that White actually saw the murderer is an embellishment.

[Johnr]

O.K. Norma,

So is Abberline saying Klosowski (Chapman) was glimpsed by a police constable in Mitre Square?


JOHN RUFFELS.

[Natalie Severn]

Now I know more sensible heads than mine have poo-poohed the possibility of an unidentified policeman having "glimpsed" the Ripper about Mitre Square
on the night of Catharine Eddowes murder, BUT what do they make of the following?

' The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court (sic) said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder..."

This quotation is from respected journalist G.R.Sims' regular weekly column in the Lloyd's Register of 22nd September 1907.
**See Press Reports on this page over on the far Left Hand side, click on "Press Reports" then on " George R.Sims" then follow the page of articles down to the date shown here. JOHN RUFFELS.

Hi John,
How do we know he wasnt referring to George Chapman [KLOSOWSKI]?

Inspector Abberline talked of Chapman"s description too.He told the Pall Mall Gazette journalist in 1903 ,

"as I say there are a score of things that make one believe that Chapman is the man....... the height of the man and the peak cap he wore tallies with the descriptions I got of him".
Also ex- Superintendent Arthur Neil,who had worked on the Chapman enquiry,writing many years later but quite specifically:
"The Polish Jew,Klosowski[Chapman]....was right on the scene of the atrocities ..............and.........THE ONLY LIVING DESCRIPTION EVER GIVEN BY AN EYEWITNESS OF THE RIPPER TALLIED EXACTLY WITH CHAPMAN EVEN TO THE HEIGHT,DEEP SUNK BLACK EYES,SALLOW COMPLEXION AND BLACK MOUSTACHE.

I would be inclined ,since Abberline was the lead, hands on, detective in the Ripper investigation ,to rate Inspector Abberline"s word against Sims ,the journalist in this matter.
Best
Norma

[Johnr]

Now I know more sensible heads than mine have poo-poohed the possibility of an unidentified policeman having "glimpsed" the Ripper about Mitre Square
on the night of Catharine Eddowes murder, BUT what do they make of the following?

' The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court (sic) said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder..."

This quotation is from respected journalist G.R.Sims' regular weekly column in the Lloyd's Register of 22nd September 1907.
**See Press Reports on this page over on the far Left Hand side, click on "Press Reports" then on " George R.Sims" then follow the page of articles down to the date shown here. JOHN RUFFELS.

[Rob Clack]

I think we all need to be careful when using 'The Peoples Journal' article as a source for our pet theories (I've been guilty of it myself). There's nothing to suggest (in the official files) that the incident ever occurred. And while deep down I would like the incident to have happened, I can't believe it did until something more concrete comes along. Going by what my heart tells me Mitre Square murder, is the most logical one and St James Place being where the observation house was. Swallow Gardens is also a possibility and there is small hearsay evidence to support both places.

Rob

Hi Rob,

You sure that picture of Edith isnt Scarlett Johansson in a brunette wig?

I think this White story via Macnaughten is interesting...partly because I believe more than one major investigation was taking place simultaneously in the East End and City of London....and one of them was the Ripper murders.

Be interesting to know why we had 3 detectives searching streets near Mitre just before the murder as well.

All the best Rob, thanks for the images.

[al2sf]

Me and my brother think that Sgt. White was near Castle Alley, because his report stated that he : "had been watching a certain alley just behind the Whitechapel road".

Now, if we keep that in mind plus the fact that the body was found on a cul-de-sac, that only leads to Castle Alley, who's right behind Whitechapel High street which is the continuation of Whitechapel road.

So, is this possible that the gentleman that White saw was Jack ? Well, that depends if Alice McKenzie was a ripper victim or not (which is probably the theme of another thread)...

No ? Yes ? Are we off topic here ? What do you think ?

[fido]

I suggest that the topography of White's supposed sighting suggests Castle Alley more than any other Ripper-related site. But there is no mention of White's presence at Cly Pipe Alice's inquest, so as with Leeson's alleged presence at Frances Coles' murder site, we have an unsubstantiated copper-on-the-ground story, though in this case we have no evidence to suggest positively that it was White's unjustified boasting or exaggeration.
All the best,
Martin F

[jmenges]

Thanks Rob for posting the back of the Stephen White photo, which has a picture of John Martin on it. 2 for the price of 1!

JM

[Jake L]

"Martinotype"?!!

Now I know what to say to people showing off their new & shiny photo gear:
"Wow! But does it take Martinotypes?"
--
One explanation as regards the genesis of the White story (or ballad) could lie in his Dioramic Entertainment gigs.

The result: several stories -heard in by someone in some auditorium years before- jumbled together and told onwards.. with a journalist adding some icing on top.
--
Here's a press clipping on White's retirement:

- - -
My favourite scenario as regards the story has Sgt White as "The Pipeman" and the thespian Mr Schwartz as "Mr Luminous Eyes".
Not that I believe in it - but there's at least some comic potential

/jake

[Rob Clack]

Here's the back of the Stephen White photo:



Rob

[jmenges]

Is it the top photo that was taken by Joseph Martin's brother, John?

And, I take that it is...

Could someone (RJM?) post a scan of the back of this photograph?

Thanks

JM

[sdreid]

Hi all,

I always thought that White might have been the "City PC near Mitre Square" identified by Macnaghten as having seen a good suspect; assuming that MM got the "City PC" wrong like he did with the "Doctor" regarding Druitt.

[Monty]

Dan,

Im inclined to agree with you. As Ive mentioned, I have a fair few issues with this story. It would seem to be an amalgamation of fact, loose fact at that ans sensationalism.

RE Coles, someone chased after someone?

Cheers

Monty