Sergeant Stephen White

[Stewart P Evans]

Sober

A more sober obituary for White appeared in the East London Observer of the same date, September 27, 1919, as follows -



In this version the story upon which the People's Journal version is undoubtedly based, appears in a more prosaic form - and reveals that he saw no suspect whatsoever. But that doesn't make for a good story. I have no doubt that this is simply another case of 'chequebook' journalism and the opportunity for someone to write another sensational Ripper story.

[Johnr]

Thank you Stewart,

For posting both of those "obit" articles about Detective Steve White again.
I agree we have been over thisd ground before,and thatthe "Dundee "People's Journal" areticle is very lurid and claiming to have special knowledge, which other papers did not.
"Cheque-book journalism" it may well be.

I have no quarrel with that.

Now let us turn to the second article.

How much of the detail in that is true?

Was White connected witheach of the Ripper inveestigations?

Was he involved in a stake-out of a suspects location on the very night of one of the murders?

Despite his reported oversight in the Packer investigation around the Stride murder, press details of White's career paint him as a capable, experienced detective.

According to your very good "Jack the Ripper: The Ultimate Sourcebook ", police records seem to indicate only one surviving mention of Steve White's involvement.

Are you satisfied Stewart, that MEPOL and Home Office records are complete
to the extent no involvement of White in Ripper investigations would remain
unchronicled?

I truly appreciate your patience herein, but I stubbornly believe something has not emerged regarding White's Ripper duties.

JOHN RUFFELS.

[Chris]

It seems to me that White may indeed have been near the site of one of the murders close to the time it was committed, so there could be a grain of truth underlying this story - though the East London Observer report makes it clear that the claim that he saw the murderer is an embellishment, and the ELO version may itself have been embellished (though, as I read it, it doesn't imply that White actually discovered the body).

I also wonder whether Harry Cox's statement that one of the murders "had taken place at the very moment when one of our smartest colleagues was passing the top of the dimly lit street" could be a reference to the same incident.

[Stewart P Evans]

Stabbing

It seems to me that White may indeed have been near the site of one of the murders close to the time it was committed, so there could be a grain of truth underlying this story - though the East London Observer report makes it clear that the claim that he saw the murderer is an embellishment, and the ELO version may itself have been embellished (though, as I read it, it doesn't imply that White actually discovered the body).
I also wonder whether Harry Cox's statement that one of the murders "had taken place at the very moment when one of our smartest colleagues was passing the top of the dimly lit street" could be a reference to the same incident.

It also cites a stabbing which may mean that it was not a Ripper killing.

[Stewart P Evans]

Investigation

Thank you Stewart,
...
How much of the detail in that is true?
Was White connected witheach of the Ripper inveestigations?
Was he involved in a stake-out of a suspects location on the very night of one of the murders?
Despite his reported oversight in the Packer investigation around the Stride murder, press details of White's career paint him as a capable, experienced detective.
According to your very good "Jack the Ripper: The Ultimate Sourcebook ", police records seem to indicate only one surviving mention of Steve White's involvement.
Are you satisfied Stewart, that MEPOL and Home Office records are complete
to the extent no involvement of White in Ripper investigations would remain
unchronicled?
I truly appreciate your patience herein, but I stubbornly believe something has not emerged regarding White's Ripper duties.
JOHN RUFFELS.

We know that White was involved in the investigation of the Whitechapel murders. Had the query not arisen over Packer then there may have been no mention of him in the official files.

There were many officers involved in the Whitechapel investigation and the majority of them, probably, are not named in the surviving files. Most of the surviving files are the overall reports and more important or relevant investigations. Thus the significance of whatever White was involved in that formed a basis for the press reports, if indeed it happened in any way as described, was probably not relevant to the inquiry. Usually only the leading investigators appear in the surviving reports. Had all the paperwork survived, including all the statements, then we would have many more police officers' names.

[Johnr]

Surviving reports: ".more 'important' or 'relevant' investigations.

We know that White was involved in the investigation of the Whitechapel murders. Had the query not arisen over Packer then there may have been no mention of him in the official files.

There were many officers involved in the Whitechapel investigation and the majority of them, probably, are not named in the surviving files. Most of the surviving files are the overall reports and more important or relevant investigations. Thus the significance of whatever White was involved in that formed a basis for the press reports, if indeed it happened in any way as described, was probably not relevant to the inquiry. Usually only the leading investigators appear in the surviving reports. Had all the paperwork survived, including all the statements, then we would have many more police officers' names.

Thanks Stewart,

Sorry for my delayed response.

Your expertise in police procedure and your vast JTR holdings, uniquely equip you to answer questions such as my last. I am grateful.

From yours and other books, it seems the police were processing a huge number of "witness reports", investigating "suspects" and responding to "concerned citizens" and -worst of all -, politicians and newspapers.

Considering the anti-police attitude of the majority of people in the killing zone, "timewasters" and "false trails" and "sheer obstructionists" must have been considerable. One only has to look at the press reports.

Given the sheer magnitude of the task, and the under-resourced nature of
reality at East End police stations, it must have been a horrendous burden for senior police to evaluate just which reports were 'relevant' let alone 'important'.The killer was never caught.

Jonathan H has expressed a belief that the reason the police did not successful run the Ripper to earth was because they were considering reports about the wrong people as 'relevant' and 'important'.

Just for one moment, let us consider what might have happened if Steve White's report ( the Dundee one) was based on substance and truth.

I have said I believe the night of the double killing by JTR was ' important '(oh dear!) because, seemingly, for the first time, the Ripper was thwarted in his first (*Stride) killing that night.

This forced him to break with his regular modus operandum, and risk searching out and killing a second victim that same night.

If, at any time in the whole campaign, the Ripper was going to make a mistake, (in my opinion) it would have to have been up to and during that second slaughter.

The apron, was left behind that night.The only piece of evidence ever uncovered.

It was at that very point, after the second killing, we have Steve White's alleged report.

(As I said earlier, we are imagining White's report is based on truth);that it is ' important' and 'relevant'.

White claims this alleged Ripper spoke with an unexpectedly cultured and musical voice. No mention of a harsh foreign accent.Was he Anglo-Saxon?
Such a detail could have been considered 'unimportant" if the police were looking for an Eastern Eurpoean Jewish emigre !


Hot potato! The Ripper was not an East Eurpoean Jewish emigre after all!

A secondary indication JTR might have been discovered that night is that he did not commit a further murder in accordance with his regular modus/rhythm after that night.

He waited an uncharacteristically long time before he struck again.

Just as you would expect if a police officer had actually spoken to him near the crime scene on that vital night.

So, Stewart, going on secondary possibilities, "The People's Journal " account might not have been so luridly inaccurate as it seems.

I'm betting the same story appeared in a London or provincial paper.

This will not make it true, but it may indicate a London provenance.
JOHN RUFFELS.

[Jonathan H]

John, you maybe absolutely correct.

That maybe what happened.

It is just that the police already had, in my opinion, a major Gentile suspect in their sights and that was Dr Tumblety.

He fled, and senior police seem to have taken the view that perhaps he was not the Fiend [or hoped he wasn't?] because primary sources show that there was no standing down in the immediate aftermath of the Kelly murder.

The very public and massive manhunt for Ripepr suspect Tom Sadler, in 1891, strongly suggests that they were looking for anybody who might credibly fit what Lawende had seen: eg. a working-class sailor -- even though Sadler was middle-aged and burly.

That's how desperate the police were.

They even denied Sadler a proper line-up for his 'confrontation' with Lawende, the Ripper's paramount witness [who allegedly saw a figure tantalizingly comparable to Druitt]

It is so predictable that Lawende, if an honest man, was not going to be pressured. That he would not say that Sadler was 'Jack the Sailor'.

Therefore, I am of the opinion that after Sadler had to be let go, and the police were once again flayed in the tabloids -- inlcuding by George Sims later their greatest booster -- suddenly, almost miraculously, not one but TWO prime suspects literally dropped into their laps: 'son of a surgeon' Montie Druitt via a loose-lipped, family neighbor and Tory MP, and the knife-wielding, prostitute-hater Aaron Kosminski, perhaps due to an equally indiscreet member of this poor, Polish family.

Unfortunately and excruciatingly for those top cops, one of these chief suspects was long dead -- and by his own hand -- and the other permanently declared mad.

We know that from the mid-1890's, Scotland Yard's senior toffs, Anderson and Macnaghten, were doing a complete about-face in their Ripper disseminations to the public.

They HAD, sort-of, caught the Fiend after all -- all two of him, or three of him?

I think that the source claiming White saw this 'Druittish' figure is a late invention, tainted by the 'Drowned Doctor' Super-suspect paradigm which was predominant, thanks to Macnaghten and his crony, Sims, in the Edwardian Era.

Or, have I missed your point entirely? That what you actually mean is thatbif the White story is valid it means that the Ripper, after Kelly, stopped because he feared he could be identiified? But the police did not know this.

Something like that?

[Johnr]

Sergeant Stephen White:Old Bailey On-Line Transcripts

Anyone wishing to read the Old Bailey Court Records of the career of Detective Sergeant Stephen White in "L" Division, and "H" Division might care to look at this link:

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/search.jsp?foo=bar&form=searchHomePage&_divs_fulltext=Detective+Sergeant&_persNames_surname=WHITE&_persNames_given=Stephen&start=0

Hope I have not broken the thread of discussion above. Which I have not yet read. JOHN RUFFELS.

[Johnr]

Oops! The killer mustn't be a Jewish Emigre After All !

Posted by JONATHAN H:

Therefore, I am of the opinion that after Sadler had to be let go, and the police were once again flayed in the tabloids -- inlcuding by George Sims later their greatest booster -- suddenly, almost miraculously, not one but TWO prime suspects literally dropped into their laps: 'son of a surgeon' Montie Druitt via a loose-lipped, family neighbor and Tory MP, and the knife-wielding, prostitute-hater Aaron Kosminski, perhaps due to an equally indiscreet member of this poor, Polish family.

Unfortunately and excruciatingly for those top cops, one of these chief suspects was long dead -- and by his own hand -- and the other permanently declared mad.

We know that from the mid-1890's, Scotland Yard's senior toffs, Anderson and Macnaghten, were doing a complete about-face in their Ripper disseminations to the public.

They HAD, sort-of, caught the Fiend after all -- all two of him, or three of him?

I am agreeing Jonathan, that everything changed in the 1890's. And that early on, the police were focussed on local Whitechapel Jews.


Three things occurred on the night of the "Double Event":

[1] Schwartz the witness at the Stride Inquest said the possible Ripper called out "Lipski". Anderson's report to the H.O. said that this was a local epithet addressed at Jews;

[2] IF the Goulston Street Graffiti is connected. Then the text could be interpreted as Warren thought, as anti-Jewish, meaning it was likely JTR wasn't;

[3] And IF Detective Sergeant Steve White's alleged report ties in with all this, then at least one "H" Division detective thought JTR did not speak like an Eastern European Jewish emigre.


I agree that considerable police resources were poured into investigating East End Ripper-like murders after the Millers Court carnage.

But I do not see that as definitely confirming their fear the Ripper had struck again: rather, I think the police did not know what to think.

The Home Office could not afford to be seen doing nothing again.

They seemed much surer of their ground as you say above, after the 1890's, Jonathan. JOHN RUFFELS.

[Jonathan H]

I see what you are saying but my impression of the 1891 Sadler hunt is rather different.

All they had to do was say they were pursuing this sailor suspect, last seen with the victim, Frances Coles -- which he was.

Instead they told the press this might be the Ripper! They wheeled out Lawende for a 'confrontation'.

They thought, or at least hoped, that this was it.

Sims was scathing in 1891.

Look, perhaps we could come at this Sergeant White puzzle from another angle?

Is the claim of what. or whom, he witnessed on the night of the Double Even by him, in an article during the Edwardian era? Or, is it at several removes?

[Jonathan H]

OK, I've just read where you said to go, and I am sorry but for once I am with the majority on this one.

The source is hopeless in terms of tracing who actually claimed all this since White was deceased, and is anyway fictitious -- literally.

The description of the killer is lifted from the Avenger, the fictionalized version of the Ripper in the famous novel of 1913, "The Lodger".

It is also, I postulate, a derivation of Macnagten's 'mistake', disseminated by Griffiths and Sims, about a beat cop momentarily seeing the killer -- and of course missing that he was the killer.

My guess, that night, is Lawende saw Druitt dressed as a sailor chatting up Catherine Eddowes [though Macnaghten made this a possible sighting of Kosminski by a non-existent beat cop, thus pulling the ethnicity of suspect and witness inside-out].

[tnb]

Firstly I must say I am pleased to see that my 'feeling' about the Sgt White story doesn't quite qualify me for the lunatic fringe.

I am still undecided myself, but I feel either way that there is much more digging necessary here - if Stewart or others can disprove everything we suggest then I will be the first to put my hands up and say 'fair enough', and at the end of the day we will have strengthened his case. From devil's advocacy are good theories formed and tested.

That said, I have just come across Dr Frederick Walker's dissertation on Joe Barnett and the Windsor Street Stakeout, and a couple of details are puzzling me. I wonder whether one of the more experienced members of our little niche may be able to help. I would after all not be being fair if I did not subject my growing theory about the event to the same level of scrutiny as those I myself disagree with!

In Dr Walker's dissertation, he states that 'We know from Ripperana #18 that it was Watkins, not White, who saw the killer at Mitre Square'. Do we? I cannot find any reference to this, and when I initially asked on another thread 'who was the policeman who allegedly saw the killer in Mitre Square?' Sgt White was the unanimous answer, no one mentioned Watkins at all? Does anyone have this Ripperana to tell us on what basis this confusion was argued?

On the other hand, the other assumption in Dr Walker's statement is that the 'Ripper' WAS seen in Mitre Square, the only debate being by whom. Does anyone know where he may have found evidence to be so sure about this (welcome support if so!)

Could it be we are missing references to the sighting by looking for them under White's name? If so, I am not sure where that leaves us - on another thread perhaps!

Also from the same dissertation, and off topic slightly, Walker quotes a report in The Echo, Sept 20th, which states that the info leading to the stake out (on which his Watkins, and possibly (?) our Sgt White, were supposedly engaged) on the night in question, was based on 'a slight clue given by "Pearly Poll"' and initially 'not thought much of at the time' but since corroborated by 'Elizabeth Allen' and 'Eliza Cooper'. Seeing as Pearly Poll is largely now thought not to have existed, do we doubt this whole report, and does this even mean the stakeout itself is under question?

[John Bennett]

Seeing as Pearly Poll is largely now thought not to have existed, do we doubt this whole report, and does this even mean the stakeout itself is under question?

TNB,

'Pearly Poll' existed surely? She was Mary Ann Connelly.

Are you getting mixed up with 'Fairy Fay'?

JB

[tnb]

oh. bugger. file under 'should have checked details first, feel like an idiot'.

Can you throw any light on the Watkins question John?

[Monty]

tnb,

Watkins himself is clear in his inquest testimony.

Coroner - Had anything excited your attention during those hours?
Watkins- No.

Coroner - Or any person?
Watkins- No. I passed through Mitre-square at 1.30 on the Sunday morning. I had my lantern alight and on - fixed to my belt. According to my usual practice, I looked at the different passages and corners.

Coroner - At half-past one did anything excite your attention?
Watkins - No.

Coroner - Did you see anyone about?
Watkins -- No.

Coroner - Could any people have been about that portion of the square without your seeing them?
Watkins - No. I next came into Mitre-square at 1.44, when I discovered the body lying on the right as I entered the square. The woman was on her back, with her feet towards the square. Her clothes were thrown up. I saw her throat was cut and the stomach ripped open. She was lying in a pool of blood. I did not touch the body. I ran across to Kearley and Long's warehouse. The door was ajar, and I pushed it open, and called on the watchman Morris, who was inside. He came out. I remained with the body until the arrival of Police-constable Holland. No one else was there before that but myself. Holland was followed by Dr. Sequeira. Inspector Collard arrived about two o'clock, and also Dr. Brown, surgeon to the police force.

Coroner - When you first saw the body did you hear any footsteps as if anybody were running away?
Watkins - No. The door of the warehouse to which I went was ajar, because the watchman was working about. It was no unusual thing for the door to be ajar at that hour of the morning.


Therefore Dr Walker is plainly incorrect when he states that 'We know from Ripperana #18 that it was Watkins, not White, who saw the killer at Mitre Square'

There is absolutely nothing to support either Watkins nor White seeing the murderer in Mitre square or anywhere else for that matter.

Monty