Sergeant Stephen White

[al2sf]

Me and my brother think that Sgt. White was near Castle Alley, because his report stated that he : "had been watching a certain alley just behind the Whitechapel road".

Now, if we keep that in mind plus the fact that the body was found on a cul-de-sac, that only leads to Castle Alley, who's right behind Whitechapel High street which is the continuation of Whitechapel road.

So, is this possible that the gentleman that White saw was Jack ? Well, that depends if Alice McKenzie was a ripper victim or not (which is probably the theme of another thread)...

No ? Yes ? Are we off topic here ? What do you think ?

[perrymason]

Hi Rob,

You sure that picture of Edith isnt Scarlett Johansson in a brunette wig?

I think this White story via Macnaughten is interesting...partly because I believe more than one major investigation was taking place simultaneously in the East End and City of London....and one of them was the Ripper murders.

Be interesting to know why we had 3 detectives searching streets near Mitre just before the murder as well.

All the best Rob, thanks for the images.

[Rob Clack]

I think we all need to be careful when using 'The Peoples Journal' article as a source for our pet theories (I've been guilty of it myself). There's nothing to suggest (in the official files) that the incident ever occurred. And while deep down I would like the incident to have happened, I can't believe it did until something more concrete comes along. Going by what my heart tells me Mitre Square murder, is the most logical one and St James Place being where the observation house was. Swallow Gardens is also a possibility and there is small hearsay evidence to support both places.

Rob

[Johnr]

Now I know more sensible heads than mine have poo-poohed the possibility of an unidentified policeman having "glimpsed" the Ripper about Mitre Square
on the night of Catharine Eddowes murder, BUT what do they make of the following?

' The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court (sic) said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder..."

This quotation is from respected journalist G.R.Sims' regular weekly column in the Lloyd's Register of 22nd September 1907.
**See Press Reports on this page over on the far Left Hand side, click on "Press Reports" then on " George R.Sims" then follow the page of articles down to the date shown here. JOHN RUFFELS.

[Natalie Severn]

Now I know more sensible heads than mine have poo-poohed the possibility of an unidentified policeman having "glimpsed" the Ripper about Mitre Square
on the night of Catharine Eddowes murder, BUT what do they make of the following?

' The policeman who got a glimpse of Jack in Mitre Court (sic) said, when some time afterwards he saw the Pole that he was the height and build of the man he had seen on the night of the murder..."

This quotation is from respected journalist G.R.Sims' regular weekly column in the Lloyd's Register of 22nd September 1907.
**See Press Reports on this page over on the far Left Hand side, click on "Press Reports" then on " George R.Sims" then follow the page of articles down to the date shown here. JOHN RUFFELS.

Hi John,
How do we know he wasnt referring to George Chapman [KLOSOWSKI]?

Inspector Abberline talked of Chapman"s description too.He told the Pall Mall Gazette journalist in 1903 ,

"as I say there are a score of things that make one believe that Chapman is the man....... the height of the man and the peak cap he wore tallies with the descriptions I got of him".
Also ex- Superintendent Arthur Neil,who had worked on the Chapman enquiry,writing many years later but quite specifically:
"The Polish Jew,Klosowski[Chapman]....was right on the scene of the atrocities ..............and.........THE ONLY LIVING DESCRIPTION EVER GIVEN BY AN EYEWITNESS OF THE RIPPER TALLIED EXACTLY WITH CHAPMAN EVEN TO THE HEIGHT,DEEP SUNK BLACK EYES,SALLOW COMPLEXION AND BLACK MOUSTACHE.

I would be inclined ,since Abberline was the lead, hands on, detective in the Ripper investigation ,to rate Inspector Abberline"s word against Sims ,the journalist in this matter.
Best
Norma

[Johnr]

O.K. Norma,

So is Abberline saying Klosowski (Chapman) was glimpsed by a police constable in Mitre Square?


JOHN RUFFELS.

[Chris]

I would be inclined ,since Abberline was the lead, hands on, detective in the Ripper investigation ,to rate Inspector Abberline"s word against Sims ,the journalist in this matter.

It's not really a question of rating Abberline's word against Sims's, because all Abberline is saying is that he thinks Chapman fits the descriptions given at the time - not, as Sims is, that a witness saw a suspect and said he matched the man he had seen (in some respects).

Surely the origin of Sims's statement is to be found in Macnaghten's statement about Kosminski (in the Aberconway draft): "This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City P.C. near Mitre Square."

Regarding White, though, I do think it's worth bearing in mind what appears to be another report of the same incident from the East London Advertiser, posted by Rob above (http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...95&postcount=1), which definitely states "He saw no man anywhere". This suggests to me that - while there may be a grain of truth somewhere in the story - the claim that White actually saw the murderer is an embellishment.

[Robert]

Certainly the man with glow worm eyes seems to have had no trace of a foreign accent.

[Ben]

THE HEIGHT,DEEP SUNK BLACK EYES,SALLOW COMPLEXION AND BLACK MOUSTACHE

I referred to the above "eyewitness description" on another Klosowski thread, and observed the following:

The trouble with Neil is that he was clearly working from a secondary source – Hargrave Adam – to make his case for Kloswoski. He even used a confused eyewitness description, presumably Adam’s, that bore no resemblance to anything that emerged from 1888, as one of most damning indications of supposed guilt. That’s not to poo-poo Klosowski’s candidacy in general, but it’s a bit of a worry that a case can be constructed on such shaky foundations.

There is no evidence of any comtemporary eyewitness describing anyone with sunken eyes or a sallow complexion, and there was certainly no mention of any Mitre Square-based police eyewitness in Swanson's compilation of witness descriptions.

Best regards,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
Personally I think the "eye witness" he is referring to is George Hutchinson.Hutchinson gave a description that tallied reasonably well with this one Neil writes about .However,you are right there doesnt appear to have been a police witness in Swanson"s reports.

I dont consider the physical description of Hutchinson or any other description -including PC Smith"s in Berner Street- to hold the key to Chapman being the Ripper.Therefore I dont consider the case against Chapman to rest on a physical description.
Much more important to my mind is that the murders began in 1888,the year when at some point Chapman worked in George Yard and later having an address at 126 Cable Street.
Cheers Ben,
Norma

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

Personally I think the "eye witness" he is referring to is George Hutchinson.

I suspect you're right. What surprises me, though, is that both Hargrave Adam and Arthur Neil (or rather one echoing the other) misremembrered the details of that description to such a drastic extent, despite using it as one of the cornerstones of their "case" against Klosowski.

All the best,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Chris,
Yes,I see what you are saying here.One thing I always try to remember is that much of what was in the police files has vanished.On the other hand,if there was a "beat " PC in Mitre Square who saw the Ripper his sighting was not referred to at the inquest on Catherine Eddowes.Also Macnaghten"s inclusion of "beat PC" appears to preclude White who was a detective sergeant and not a beat PC.
It really is a tough one this because the night Catherine Eddowes was murdered there were a number of police about around Aldgate,and these may well have included police such as Det. Sergeant White-who appear to have been engaged in the ongoing "surveillance monitoring" of Irish dynamitards and anarchists in Whitechapel , Aldgate and Mitre Square.In fact no less than Inspector Abberline had actually tracked and caught two Irish bomb makers in digs in MItre Square only three years before.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,



I suspect you're right. What surprises me, though, is that both Hargrave Adam and Arthur Neil (or rather one echoing the other) misremembrered the details of that description to such a drastic extent, despite using it as one of the cornerstones of their "case" against Klosowski.

All the best,
Ben

Yes,its as though they crammed in everything they thought would give extra credence to their "case" without ever paying much-if any- attention to detail.
N

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

On the other hand,if there was a "beat " PC in Mitre Square who saw the Ripper his sighting was not referred to at the inquest on Catherine Eddowes.

More problematic is the total absence of any reference to a PC suspect sighting/description in Swanson's report on the witnesses with regard to the Mitre Square murder. Since this was an internal police document, the only valid explanation for such an absence is that there was never any suspect description to have originated from a PC at or near Mitre Square.

Best regards,
Ben

[Chris]

On the other hand,if there was a "beat " PC in Mitre Square who saw the Ripper his sighting was not referred to at the inquest on Catherine Eddowes.Also Macnaghten"s inclusion of "beat PC" appears to preclude White who was a detective sergeant and not a beat PC.

Just to clarify - I wasn't trying to suggest either that there was really a City PC who saw the Ripper, or that White did so.

Just that Macnaghten's (apparently mistaken) belief that there was a City PC witness must have been the source of the statement by Sims that John quoted.