New Article on the Swanson Marginalia in Ripperologist 128

[Scott Nelson]

"Everyone's interests"?

I don't think very many people are interested anymore.

[Phil H]

Scott - as I wrote a couple of posts ago in this thread:

I can think of few historical documents that have the provenance or the demonstrated authenticity of the marginalia. Any reasonable historian - reasonable scepticism aside -should be able to accept and work with this as a source.

The reasonable scepticism I was referring to concerns the judgement of Anderson and DSS about the suspect and whether they were right - not about the document/maginalia itself.

Ripperlogy always needs to be on its guard, it seems to me, against arguments about victims, the MO, timings etc, that are not impartial but designed to promote or support a particular theory. It is a failing the bedevils the subject.

Phil H

[John Bennett]

Lechmere,

Without going too deeply into it, it is obvious from your lengthy post that you consider that the documents relating to Swanson from the N.O.W. and his own family should be treated as suspicious (perhaps not even genuine) until further rigorous testing can be done.

So, if this IS done, what will it take to make you, and a number of others here on these boards, happy? These are documents with terrific provenance; personally, although it would be nice to find out why that 1981 draft article is in the Crime Museum, I don't think it is odd that it is there.

I feel that there is a fundamental process at work here, that being: always ask questions - then when answers are given, question those as well.

Thus any answers given will never be good enough. Stalemate.

JB

[Chris]

I feel that there is a fundamental process at work here, that being: always ask questions - then when answers are given, question those as well.

Of course, whatever evidence is presented, it's possible to come up with some outlandish hypothesis to get around it. That's why the legal standard of proof is only "beyond reasonable doubt". Nothing in this world can be proved with absolute certainty, outside mathematics.

In this instance, Lechmere doesn't even present a hypothesis to explain how - for example - a fake document could have been planted in the Crime Museum. Nor, in all that long screed, does he present any substantive reason to doubt the authenticity of these documents, only examples of ways in which the evidence falls short of his (impossibly) high standards.

[Lechmere]

There is reason to doubt it because the material has been accepted as genuine by people in the 'ripperological' community far too readily and it is now being offered for sale.
There is an unhealthy symbiotic relationship between some 'ripperologists' and the collection which is preventing a sensible and healthily sceptical attitude towards the collection.
This article in the 'Ripperologist' is being used to promote the sale as is the previous holding of the book by the Scotland Yard Museum. Access to the collection has been at the families sufferance and an unacademic reluctance to press matters - particularly with the frail jim Swanson - meant that many questions that should have been asked never were. This has badly compromised the whole collection.
If the collection came to light in a public archive then these 'sensitive' issues would not have arisen.

Action should be taken to establish exactly what news international may still know about the communications with jim Swanson. The families of the deceased journalists should be contacted to see if the signatures are at least genuine.

A proper explanation should be found for the appearance of the news of the world material at Scotland yard. Surely only a limited number of people could have legitimately taken delivery of it.
Otherwise the supposition must be that someone illegitimately placed it there to be found. I do not suppose that it would be that difficult for someone to do
that. Numerous people must have had access to the crime museum over the years. This is not a difficult thing to work out.

A proper search should be made for other sources of DS Seanson's handwriting
- In pen - from the later part of his life for comparative purposes.

DSSwanson's health records should be searched for to see if there is any evidence to substantiate the claims he had Parkinson's or something similar. Has anyone seen his death certificate? Are there any other sources that suggest he had shakey hands?

As a matter of urgency a search should be made for Warren's letter. If found it should be properly examined. The existing photographs should in the meantime be given a proper examination.

These are obvious and straightforward measures which should be taken. Until Then buyer beware.

[Chris]

Lechmere

If you feel more research needs to be done, there's no one stopping you from doing it yourself (and you'll find the answer to at least one of your questions in the wiki section). But if you're expecting someone else to do it, I don't think repeatedly posting long 'To Do' lists on Casebook while lecturing people about their "unhealthy symbiotic relationships" is likely to bear much fruit.

[John Bennett]

There is reason to doubt it because the material has been accepted as genuine by people in the 'ripperological' community far too readily and it is now being offered for sale.
There is an unhealthy symbiotic relationship between some 'ripperologists' and the collection which is preventing a sensible and healthily sceptical attitude towards the collection.
This article in the 'Ripperologist' is being used to promote the sale as is the previous holding of the book by the Scotland Yard Museum.

That's quite an allegation. I can only imagine what Adam, Keith and more importantly Nevill Swanson would make of it. Personally, I would say it's cobblers.

Action should be taken to establish exactly what news international may still know about the communications with jim Swanson. The families of the deceased journalists should be contacted to see if the signatures are at least genuine.

Considering what the News Of The World published throughout its controversial history, I'm not convinced that the families of the deceased journalists would care or even necessarily remember this matter.

JB

[John Bennett]

To be fair, with matters such as this, we must either be patient and wait for those with access to the relevant people and documents to produce more material, or we find it ourselves.

[Monty]

That's quite an allegation. I can only imagine what Adam, Keith and more importantly Nevill Swanson would make of it. Personally, I would say it's cobblers.



Considering what the News Of The World published throughout its controversial history, I'm not convinced that the families of the deceased journalists would care or even necessarily remember this matter.

JB

Having requested Trevor Marriott to either provide evidence supporting an equally hefty allegation, retract it or face legal action, I suspect Edwards post equally will not be missed by Nevil.

I also find his post very hypocritical, seeing as he accuses on nothing more than conjecture.

Monty

[Lechmere]

Are we seeing an attempt to silence discussion on this subject?
I would be fascinated to know what legal action I might face.
Is it the crime of asking awkward questions? Yes that must be it.

[John Bennett]

Having requested Trevor Marriott to either provide evidence supporting an equally hefty allegation, retract it or face legal action, I suspect Edwards post equally will not be missed by Nevil.

I wouldn't say it's a hefty allegation, Neil, just that suggesting that the article may be little more than a marketing ploy could be hurtful.

Are we seeing an attempt to silence discussion on this subject?

One should hope not.

JB

[Monty]

Are we seeing an attempt to silence discussion on this subject?
I would be fascinated to know what legal action I might face.
Is it the crime of asking awkward questions? Yes that must be it.

Looking at the scattered number of responses received on this thread since you re-ignited it clearly shows that you've killed all discussion on this thread by yourself Edward.

The asking of questions is fine, its the faint accusation of collusion which raises concern. However that's not for me to decide upon.

Fortunately.

Monty

[Monty]

I wouldn't say it's a hefty allegation, Neil, just that suggesting that the article may be little more than a marketing ploy could be hurtful.



One should hope not.

JB

I disagree John,

Collusion is a hefty accusation in my book, and an offence in some legal ones.

Monty

[Chris]

Is it the crime of asking awkward questions? Yes that must be it.

If only you were coming up with some awkward questions, rather than endlessly regurgitating the same tedious and meaningless innuendo.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

I have a question which I am not certain is awkward or not.

When exactly, following its first page having been photographed and published, did Sir Charles Warren's 15th September 1888 "eyes and ears" Swanson memo become "believed lost"?

Regards,

Simon