New Article on the Swanson Marginalia in Ripperologist 128

[Lechmere]

Chris
You suggested that the tests to establish the legitimacy of the Swanson collection were too stringent so I took the trouble to set out what the relevant tests might be. I am sorry if you think it was a tedious meaningless screed.
Would have to guess that your vague pointer to the Casebook Wiki was a reference to Swanson’s death certificate, reference to which I found there.
You invited me to conduct my own research to answer the issues I raised. Unfortunately I do not have access to the Swanson Collection nor to Scotland Yard and this makes it a little difficult.

The issues I raised I hope might be of help to those with an interest in the Collection and be a spur to closing off any potential points of dispute. It is in their interest to do this. This would be a more fruitful avenue for them to explore rather than aiming ire at me for having the impertinence to be the boy pointing at the Emperor’s new clothes.

The most noteworthy aspect of this is that (leaving aside a few minor details such as Swanson’s death certificate) not one of the substantive issues I have raised in this entire thread has been addressed. That speaks for itself.

Incidentally one of DS Swanson’s secondary causes of death was Asthenia – which meant weakness or a lack of strength and was in all likelihood associated with his heart disease The pencil written letter used to corroborate the secondary marginalia entries is dated 15 months prior to DS Swanson’s death. There is no evidence to suggest an affliction such as Parkinson’s Disease whohc had been defined as an illness in the 1880s.

Until the Swanson Collection is properly authenticated then I would recommend that Patricia Cornwell holds onto her Yankee Dollars. Of course one danger is that if someone were to pay a considerable sum for the collection then they would have a financial interest in maintaining its authenticity.

John
I have not suggested that the ‘Ripperologist’ article constituted collusion - however it is referenced in the Swanson Collection on line sale catalogue under the Swanson Marginalia tab:

http://www.donaldsutherlandswanson.co.uk/marginalia.html

Monty
I eagerly await the dull thud of a summons landing on my doorstep.

[Chris]

The most noteworthy aspect of this is that (leaving aside a few minor details such as Swanson’s death certificate) not one of the substantive issues I have raised in this entire thread has been addressed.

The whole point about the kind of innuendo you've been posting is that it cannot be addressed.

I mean - for heaven's sake - what response do you expect if you post something like "This document is written in pencil" as a reason for doubting its authenticity? Do you want someone to compile a list of authentic documents that were written in pencil for you?

[Lechmere]

Chris
I was expecting someone to say that the news of the world items had been seen in 1990 or something - or failing that then someone with the right connections might chip in and say that they would recommend that the news of the world items be gathered together and taken to news international for an opinion.
Or someone might say that the warren letter was indeed closely examined before it was mislaid - whenever it was mislaid.
Or some sort of exPlanation might be forthcoming as to why the Swansons did not check through their documents back in 1981 when they first - we are told - tried to sell the story. Why didn't they check everything then?
Did anyone in this field who met with them subsequently ask if there was anything else?
I was expecting something to be said about this rather than silence.
Everything I have raised Could be addressed and it hasn't been.
What is actually known about ds swanson's medical condition in his latter years? Am I right in suggesting that nothing is known? Apart from the snippet that he liked threading flies for his fishing trips. A fiddly job if ever there was one.
As for the pencil writing, I would suggest that adults from a professional background would tend not to write letters in pencil - annotations fair enough. There should surely be suitable examples in pen.

[Chris]

As for the pencil writing, I would suggest that adults from a professional background would tend not to write letters in pencil - annotations fair enough. There should surely be suitable examples in pen.

As far as I know, no one has suggested there aren't examples written in ink. I believe there's no shortage of such examples.

What Dr Davies said in his original report was that writing in pencil could be different from writing in ink, and that he might be able to be more definite in his conclusions if he had examples written in pencil for comparison. In other words, examples of DSS's handwriting in ink are of less relevance, because the annotations were written in pencil.

As for the rest of your comments, what can one say? Apparently if one says nothing, you're going to present that as further evidence to support your suggestion that these documents may have been faked. So, to be brief:
(1) As far as I know, you're the first person to suggest Warren's order putting Swanson in charge of the case is (or may be) a fake. It was photographed, and the photograph was published. What more you expect in the way of "close examination" I don't know. Have you actually any reason to think it may not be what it seems? And why do you think this document is relevant in any way to the authenticity of the annotations?
(2) What exactly are you suggesting the Swanson family should have checked for in 1981, and why? Obviously they were in a position to know that the annotations hadn't been faked (unless someone had broken into the family home and faked them). No one suggested in 1981 that they had been faked. So what do you think they should have been checking for, and why?
(3) If you do a Google search, you will find that arteriosclerosis/atherosclerosis can indeed cause tremor.

[Phil H]

As far as I know, you're the first person to suggest Warren's order putting Swanson in charge of the case is (or may be) a fake. It was photographed, and the photograph was published.

I don't recall ever seeing this document described as a "fake" but I seem to remember that it was for many years ascribed to Anderson and not Warren.

As an aside, in my youth (1950s) my father (a local Government official), writing at home, often used pencil - and indelible pencil at that. Tolkien, writing in the 20s/30s and later, often wrote initial drafts in pencil,. (His son's History of Middle Earth - about the development of JRR Tolkien's fiction, describes this in detail.)

Phil H

[AdamNeilWood]

I was expecting someone to say that the news of the world items had been seen in 1990 or something - or failing that then someone with the right connections might chip in and say that they would recommend that the news of the world items be gathered together and taken to news international for an opinion.

If you take the trouble to read the article, it's clear that Charles Nevin of the Telegraph knew that Jim Swanson had approached the NOTW in 1981 - Jim showed him the letter from Robert Warren releasing him from their contract. Regarding anyone seeing the correspondence since, here's a post by Chris dated 23 July 2011. The first line will tell you why no Ripperologist has seen these letters until very recently:

The Swanson family recently came across Jim Swanson's correspondence from the 1980s concerning the 'marginalia', and kindly made it available to Keith Skinner. Keith suggested it might be useful if I posted a summary of the salient information here. This post summarises the chronology. Below I'll post some extracts from the letters, in which Jim Swanson wrote about his grandfather, described the material and explained his reasons for offering it for publication.

So despite it being clear that the NOTW were involved in discussions with Jim Swanson, you want someone to contact the families of dead journalists to ask whether the signatures are genuine? Shall we get someone to authenticate Nevin's emails to me as well while we're at it?

Or someone might say that the warren letter was indeed closely examined before it was mislaid - whenever it was mislaid. Or some sort of exPlanation might be forthcoming as to why the Swansons did not check through their documents back in 1981 when they first - we are told - tried to sell the story. Why didn't they check everything then? Did anyone in this field who met with them subsequently ask if there was anything else?

Seeing as the first any Ripperologist knew of the Marginalia was when Charles Nevin contacted Martin Fido and Don Rumbelow for opinion in 1987, I don't see how anyone could have asked Jim Swanson what else he might have had in 1981, apart from Charles Sandell of the NOTW. Perhaps someone should contact his family and while authenticating his signature ask if he happened to keep a diary detailing what he asked Jim Swanson back in 1981?

It's already been posted that Nevill Swanson is presently collating documents and papers from all sides of the family, and that further information might very well come to light (including the Warren letter). But you've already cast doubt on this drip-feed of information, and that it's suspicious all the evidence is coming from one source. So what would be the point of finding further information?

I was expecting something to be said about this rather than silence. Everything I have raised Could be addressed and it hasn't been.

I gave you a possible explanation for the unused NOTW article appearing in the Crime Museum and you dismissed it. Just because you didn't agree with the idea, it doesn't mean it wasn't addressed.

What is actually known about ds swanson's medical condition in his latter years? Am I right in suggesting that nothing is known? Apart from the snippet that he liked threading flies for his fishing trips. A fiddly job if ever there was one.

Putting aside whether or not Swanson could thread one, where does it say that he enjoyed fly fishing?

As for the pencil writing, I would suggest that adults from a professional background would tend not to write letters in pencil - annotations fair enough. There should surely be suitable examples in pen.

What about address books? Or police notepads? Would you expect Swanson to use ink when writing in those? The address book contains entries in ink, but the majority in pencil. Perhaps someone researched all his friends and acquaintances and knocked up an address book to show Swanson did write in pencil, even going as far to identify his dentist, tailor and estate agent?

[AdamNeilWood]

Hi All,

I have a question which I am not certain is awkward or not.

When exactly, following its first page having been photographed and published, did Sir Charles Warren's 15th September 1888 "eyes and ears" Swanson memo become "believed lost"?

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

I wouldn't say it's "believed lost" as such, Nevill Swanson says "present whereabouts unknown", believing it's in the family somewhere. Remember, he still has a pile of papers to go through so it could very well be amongst those.

Best wishes
Adam

[Simon Wood]

Hi Adam,

Thank you.

In stating the memo was "believed lost" I was merely quoting a footnote from the 2006 book JtR:SYI, in which the first page of the memo was reproduced.

Regards,

Simon

[Bridewell]

Provenance

If the collection came to light in a public archive then these 'sensitive' issues would not have arisen.

But if the collection had come to light in a public archive it wouldn't have anything like the provenance that it does! The Swanson Collection has been in the family's hands throughout. That is a chain of evidence which adds to, rather than detracting from, its authenticity.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Pencil and Pen

As for the pencil writing, I would suggest that adults from a professional background would tend not to write letters in pencil - annotations fair enough.

Historically police officers have greatly favoured the use of pencil over pen. That is a habit formed early in the patrol constable who quickly learns that, in damp conditions, pencil is infinitely more reliable than pen. There is nothing in the least suspect about a police officer, or retired police officer, resorting to the use of a pencil. I have a copy of a book which alludes to an unsolved Nottinghamshire murder from the 1960's and refers to a suspect without naming him. He is named, in pencil, in my copy of the book and I didn't do so in any kind of conscious emulation of DSS.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Lechmere]

Bridewell
I think you are somewhat mistaken.
For example the provenance of the records at the national archive or the london metropolitan archive or even humble tower hamlets local history archive is impeccable as they have been publicly accessible for years and the date and means of acquisition is known. The same goes for example with the booth papers at the London school of economics.
A private collection that comes to light in the recent past has no such provenance unless the items that comprise it are rigerously tested.
Incidentally the scotland yard museum appears not to have a log of when items were acquired - at least the mysterious news of the world draft article seems to have popped up in that collection quite unannounced! The provenance of items from that source is clearly not so useful.

Another example for you is the warren letter appointing ds Swanson as a superannuated filing clerk for the whitechapel murders. If this item were held where it strictly belongs (presuming it is genuine) - in the national archive - then few doubts could be entertained as to its bona fides and we would hope it would not be 'lost'.

[Phil H]

As I wrote earlier,

As an aside, in my youth (1950s) my father (a local Government official), writing at home, often used pencil - and indelible pencil at that. Tolkien, writing in the 20s/30s and later, often wrote initial drafts in pencil,. (His son's History of Middle Earth - about the development of JRR Tolkien's fiction, describes this in detail.)

If you think about it, before the 50s and the arrival of cheap "Bic" biro pens, there was a limited choice of things to write with.

There were fountain pens, and dip pens, but pencils were easy and readily shapenable. It is quite obvious why people used them - especially if somewhere where ink wells and bottles were not easily to hand.

Indeed, as I remember well from my time researching Foreign Office files in the (then) Public Records Office in Chancery Lane- now National Archives, Kew - King Edward VII annotated official dispatches in pencil or crayon. So Swanson was not idiosyncratic at all.

Finally, I really must protest at the unwarranted slur on Swanson - a long-serving, loyal and scrupulous Crown servant as it seems to me. To refer to him as a superannuated filing clerk for the whitechapel murders even allowing for the writer's poor grammar seems to me to be letting prejudice show through. There is surely no historical basis for such an accusation.

Two things:

* it seems utterly reasonable to me that a series of murders which were attracting considerable press and public attention, should have a co-ordinator. Who else would pull together the various inputs from the street etc? Who else provide briefings for the Commissioner or Home Secretary? how else could co-ordination have been carried out?

* I have seen no evidence to suggest that Swanson sought, manoeuvred for, or wanted the role. It was given to him. Should he have refused?

Superannuated, means pensionable. Was Swanson even close to pensionable age in 1888? Certainly not, he had a decade or more service ahead of him. Neither were his duties those of a filing clerk or anything close to them.

Phil H

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Here's the final page of a 16th October 1882 report by Inspector Donald Sutherland Swanson, written after having escorted a Phoenix Park suspect to Dublin at the behest of Edward Jenkinson, Britain's so-called "Spymaster General".



Two signatures are clearly recognisable.

Regards,

Simon

[Bridewell]

Provenance

Bridewell
I think you are somewhat mistaken.
For example the provenance of the records at the national archive or the london metropolitan archive or even humble tower hamlets local history archive is impeccable as they have been publicly accessible for years and the date and means of acquisition is known. The same goes for example with the booth papers at the London school of economics.

I am not mistaken at all. The records you refer to in the National Archive and in the London Metropolitan Archive are, and have been, as you acknowledge, "publicly accessible for years". Publicly accessible records can be tampered with by the public, whereas a private collection cannot. For that reason, if you are doubting the authenticity of the Swanson Marginalia you are, of necessity, casting aspersions upon the integrity of the Swanson family, the only people who have had unfettered access to the documents since the death of Swanson himself.

Another example for you is the warren letter appointing ds Swanson as a superannuated filing clerk for the whitechapel murders.

Swanson was neither superannuated nor a filing clerk. He was the 'de facto' head of the Whitechapel Murder enquiry. Anderson had no police experience. I used the phrase "chain of evidence" in my earlier post. Where evidence is concerned, the shorter the chain the better and the chain, in the case of the Marginalia, is very short indeed. They are authenticated beyond reasonable doubt.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Hunter]

Both Anderson and Warren mention Swanson's role contemporaneously. Anyone with a copy of "the Ultimate" can find them. And then there's the records of subsequent years which show Swanson's involvement.

The files and even suspect theories sent to Swanson's desk were not so he could simply assimilate them for a central repository. He did make comment on them.

In fact, his role seems to increase as time goes on and others are reassigned to other duties... and this is not to suggest that Swanson didn't have other duties too, but, unlike some of the others periodically involved, the WM were still part of his duties. In 1891, he personally interviews Sadler and his wife, and follows up months later. In 1896, a 'Ripper' letter is channeled to him directly and he chastises those involved for circulating it before he had a chance to peruse it and evaluate its worth.

However his conclusions in his annotations are considered, he was the one policeman in all of this who would have been in possession of most everything relating to this investigation. He still could have ultimately been wrong in his assessment of the suspect he is relating to. Not surprising in an unsolved case with no consensus. But Donald Sutherland Swanson is as good as it gets in any evaluation of the police investigation and what it encompassed... whatever value that even has at this remove.