New Article on the Swanson Marginalia in Ripperologist 128

[lynn cates]

City P C

Hello Paul. Thanks.

"There is no reason to suppose that "Kosminski" was known to, let alone suspected, significantly before the the identification, otherwise he'd presumably have been identified then."

Hard to disagree here. But I'm a bit curious about the city PC story. I go through them one by one, but none fit.

Did Watkins or Harvey come back later with, "Sorry, but I've been holding out"?

Cheers.
LC

[Chris]

I'd question why anyone thinks "Kosminski" was in the frame in 1889. All we know from Anderson is that a house-to-house search apparently eliminated men who lived alone and forced the conclusion that the murderer lived with people who it was assumed must have suspicions which they self-evidently weren't communicating to the police. That led to somebody suggesting that the murderer was a Polish Jew, which, says Anderson, eventually proved to be the case. He does not indicate how soon afterwards. Swanson doesn't allow us to infer that any great interval separated the identification from the suspect being committed, which, if the suspect was Aaron Kosminski, probably dates both events to early 1891. There is no reason to suppose that "Kosminski" was known to, let alone suspected, significantly before the the identification, otherwise he'd presumably have been identified then.

But of course the only definite indication of a date is Macnaghten's March 1889. For some reason Macnaghten seems to have thought that 'Kosminski' was out of the way in an asylum by the time he (Macnaghten) joined the force as Assistant Chief Constable, CID. From that, it seems that if the investigation took place in 1890 or 1891 in the way described by Swanson, Macnaghten didn't know about it at the time.

[Phil H]

I'd question why anyone thinks "Kosminski" was in the frame in 1889.

I am simply thinking out loud, which is surely not an unreasonable thing to do.

None of us appear yet to have made total sense of the marginalia et al, so let's think a little out side the box.

The 1889 date is simply the one when Kosminski lifts himself by name above the public parapet. As it was a City court and Mitre Square is in the City is it unreasonable to suggest someone put a name to a face at that time?

We also know the City police staked-out a Jewish area on the Met's patch, which might tie in. It is not incompatible in the slightest with what DSS says.

All we know from Anderson is that a house-to-house search apparently eliminated men who lived alone and forced the conclusion that the murderer lived with people who it was assumed must have suspicions which they self-evidently weren't communicating to the police. That led to somebody suggesting that the murderer was a Polish Jew...,

Is that connection absolute in your opinion?

There is no reason to suppose that "Kosminski" was known to, let alone suspected, significantly before the the identification, otherwise he'd presumably have been identified then.

With respect that involves several assumptions.

Phil H

[robhouse]

I think it's fair to assume that in the event the witness was prepared to give evidence, Kosminski would have been shipped off to Britain's institution for dangerous murderers (where deemed unfit to plead).

That is correct. Anderson actually stated this specifically.

Pending the discovery of an alternative "Kosminski" in the asylum records, my feeling is that it was not anticipated that Aaron Kosminski would live very long after committal and that by 1895 it was assumed he was dead.

I tend to agree.

Against that, is the argument that surely the police would have kept close tabs on Kosminski, but I don't know whether that is what they did or not.

Is it not possible that some sort of "tabs" were kept on AK, but that would still not mean that Sir RA or DSS knew every detail or any information at all.

Senior officials in any organisation have more to do, and higher responsibilities, than day-t-day detail. They are paid to look at the bigger picture and - as as with a CEO today - would be dependent on information being passed to them by junior staff. It was neither their business nor appropriate for them to have kept a personal watch on an individual case.

As time went on their interest would have switched to other matters of policy or policing. A casual mention (incorrect) that AK had died - maybe someone was talking Kaminski and they "heard" Kosminski - would be enough to lodge in their minds that the man was dead. Only one of Sir RA or DSS needs to have heard that - he simply passed on the information received (wrongly). Why should they probe more?

We today regard the Ripper case as central. I am not sure that was the case in the 1890s. True it had attracted lots of public and press attention and been somewhat embarrassing, but by the 1890s it was over. Time to move on. In memoirs and interviews the case made for some local colour and was one the public might recall - but I suspect that it was not what Sir RA or DSS thought about much later in their long careers.

This is an excellent post. I admit that I do not know why Swanson (and possibly Anderson) thought Kozminski had died, but I tend to think it was something along these lines. Either just generally losing track of him, or a wrong assumption...

Or possibly that Anderson knew he was not dead, but that instead he had been transferred to another asylum... but told people, including Swanson, that he had died.

Which suggests to me they had something beyond Lawende's sighting.

Either someone has stumbled upon Jack pretty much red handed - based on what we know this could only have been Schwartz.

Or, someone has come forward with damning information.

Yes, I agree with this. I think someone came forward with information... probably a family member in my opinion.

RH

[robhouse]

I'd question why anyone thinks "Kosminski" was in the frame in 1889.

I am simply thinking out loud, which is surely not an unreasonable thing to do.

None of us appear yet to have made total sense of the marginalia et al, so let's think a little out side the box.

YES! Thank you Phil. I agree completely. Too many assumptions have been made, and stuck by for too long.

RH

[PaulB]

But of course the only definite indication of a date is Macnaghten's March 1889. For some reason Macnaghten seems to have thought that 'Kosminski' was out of the way in an asylum by the time he (Macnaghten) joined the force as Assistant Chief Constable, CID. From that, it seems that if the investigation took place in 1890 or 1891 in the way described by Swanson, Macnaghten didn't know about it at the time.

Hi Chris,
Yes, you are right. I was purposefully omitting Macnaghten from that question because he seems to be contradicted by Swanson, and prima facie Swanson is a primary and Macnaghten a secondary source in that the one was possibly present and the other wasn't. But absolutely, your observation is correct and well taken.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

I'm obviously missing something here.

If the Kosminski investigation did take place in 1890 or 1891 in the way described by Swanson, why would Macnaghten not have known/been told about it at the time?

Regards,

Simon

[robhouse]

Hi All,

I'm obviously missing something here.

If the Kosminski investigation did take place in 1890 or 1891 in the way described by Swanson, why would Macnaghten not have known/been told about it at the time?

Regards,

Simon

Why do you think he would have been told about it? He was not involved in investigating the Ripper case, was he?

RH

[Phil H]

Perhaps Simon, because Anderson and Swanson were acting in an extrra-curricular way, liaising with the City police and perhaps conducting an investigation at arms length. As I have said, Anderson was used to "secret work" so this might not have been new territory for him.

MM clearly knew of the existence of Kosminski even some details, perhaps possessing even more accurate information than Anderson and Swanson had. But if this was a "private venture" by the two colleagues, who's association pre-dated the arrival of MM, maybe the latter was deliberately (necessarily?) kept out of the loop.

Phil H

[Simon Wood]

Hi Phil H,

By 1890 Macnaghten had been promoted to Chief Constable [CID].

Why would such a senior police officer have been kept out of the loop?

But if, as you appear to suggest, Macnaghten was kept out of the loop for arcane secret-world reasons, how could he have possessed even more accurate information than Anderson and Swanson?

Regards,

Simon

[Fleetwood Mac]

I admit that I do not know why Swanson (and possibly Anderson) thought Kozminski had died, but I tend to think it was something along these lines. Either just generally losing track of him, or a wrong assumption...

Or possibly that Anderson knew he was not dead, but that instead he had been transferred to another asylum... but told people, including Swanson, that he had died.

Hello Rob,

I'm afraid the above is hopeful and doesn't wash.

If we're saying that Swanson knew all about the ID, then we can't argue that Swanson was 'simply told he was dead'. If we're arguing that Swanson was simply told bits, then that puts the other bits into question and the product of Anderson alone; with obvious connotations.

I find the argument 'they lost track of him' to be untenable.

Jack clearly was an extremely dangerous man. People went in and out of asylums as their 'mania' took hold and ceased. It is unthinkable that they would have taken their collective eye off the most dangerous man of their careers, as borne out by having City CID watch him day and night.

It seems that Swanson genuinely thought he was dead, or it wasn't Aaron.

[robhouse]

Hello Rob,

I'm afraid the above is hopeful and doesn't wash.

If we're saying that Swanson knew all about the ID, then we can't argue that Swanson was 'simply told he was dead'. If we're arguing that Swanson was simply told bits, then that puts the other bits into question and the product of Anderson alone; with obvious connotations.

I find the argument 'they lost track of him' to be untenable.

Jack clearly was an extremely dangerous man. People went in and out of asylums as their 'mania' took hold and ceased. It is unthinkable that they would have taken their collective eye off the most dangerous man of their careers, as borne out by having City CID watch him day and night.

It seems that Swanson genuinely thought he was dead, or it wasn't Aaron.

We are talking about something that happened years after the Ripper murders here... 1895 is 7 years later. I agree that Swanson would have known all about what happened with "the suspect" at the time he was in charge of the investigation. As to whether Swanson kept tabs on Kozminski in the asylum for years after the fact... we do not know that. The police did not, to my knowledge, keep tabs on people who had not been convicted of a crime... The convict Supervision Office clearly kept track of convicted criminals in asylums. But legally speaking, Kozminski was not a criminal because he was never convicted of a crime. So if they did keep track of him it was probably informally, or "extra-legally".

RH

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil H,

By 1890 Macnaghten had been promoted to Chief Constable [CID].

Why would such a senior police officer have been kept out of the loop?

But if, as you appear to suggest, Macnaghten was kept out of the loop for arcane secret-world reasons, how could he have possessed even more accurate information than Anderson and Swanson?

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

Then also, why was a man IN secret work, Littlechild (Special Branch) NOT knowing about Kosminsky? Surely if he was , and Kosminski WAS a main super-secret-suspect..he would have mentioned it in the Littlechild letter? As in main suspect for comparison....


best wishes

Phil

[Phil H]

Then also, why was a man IN secret work, Littlechild (Special Branch) NOT knowing about Kosminsky? Surely if he was , and Kosminski WAS a main super-secret-suspect..he would have mentioned it in the Littlechild letter? As in main suspect for comparison....
Well I'm hypothesising that Anderson and Swanson had been engaging on their own "secret work" - why would that involve Littlechild? Just an idea I'm playing with. I am not saying they used Special Branch.

As for MM - anyone involved in office work or a large organisation will be aware of the role office politics plays. Information is, to a certain extent, power.

MM was a newcomer, he had been opposed by Warren (whom Anderson applauded publicy). Why should Anderson and Swanson trust MM?

They might have shared certain information - the name of the supect for instance, without including him in awareness of their clandestine activities. All speculation but not, I suggest, beyond the bounds of plausibility or realism.

But if, as you appear to suggest, Macnaghten was kept out of the loop for arcane secret-world reasons, how could he have possessed even more accurate information than Anderson and Swanson?

MM was known to be fascinated by crime and to take a retrospective interest in the ripper case. he might have made his own enquiries and got information that was correct. Not knowing that sir RA and DSS had incorrect information, he did not correct them or know he needed to.

The Ripper case was history (mainly) for Sir RA and DSS - they had moved on. MM had not.

Phil H

[Phil Carter]

Then also, why was a man IN secret work, Littlechild (Special Branch) NOT knowing about Kosminsky? Surely if he was , and Kosminski WAS a main super-secret-suspect..he would have mentioned it in the Littlechild letter? As in main suspect for comparison....
Well I'm hypothesising that Anderson and Swanson had been engaging on their own "secret work" - why would that involve Littlechild? Just an idea I'm playing with. I am not saying they used Special Branch.

Hello Phil H,

Fair enough,hypothesis accepted... but you seem to be suggesting that Anderson and Swanson have secret work aside from (in Swanson's case) ordinary police work and in Anderson's case, Special Branch work?

Now I'm aware that some sensitive Special Branch work is done on a need to know basis only..that's fair enough.. but only seemingly involving one other individual on such an important case as the hunt for the Whitechapel Murderer really is pulling the curtain too far over for me. Especially when that one person ISN'T Special Branch. He's an ordinary copper. (albeit a damned good one, I hasten to add).

The pressure on the Met Policeforce as a whole, the Ass Comm and the Comm was enormous. I simply cannot believe that all this "secret work" would be done just in order to get a low class nonentity like Kosminski.

I have a really odd feeling that Monro knew a darn sight more than Anderson, Swanson and Macnagthen combined regarding the murderer(s). Just my thoughts.

best wishes

Phil