Correspondence from the 1980s concerning the 'marginalia'

[Stewart P Evans]

Comedy

Well it would seem that Littlechild,Abberline,Macnaghten,Anderson and Swanson were all founder members of the "Magic Circle" as they all seemed to have pulled rabbits out of hats !

Trevor, have you ever tried stand up comedy? You might find it easier than writing books.

[mklhawley]

Hi Wolf,

I'll submit to SPE's comments. The comment, 'a very likely one', from the chief inspector of Special Branch twenty five years later can only mean Tumblety was a suspect to remember. Keep in mind, the gross indecency issue was on the West Side. What on earth caused him to connect Tumblety to the East Side murders?


Excellent thought Phil, especially knowing your background. My point is about Tumblety being a serious suspect in the minds of Scotland Yard at the time of the murders, as opposed to him actually being the killer.

Sincerely,

Mike

[Jonathan H]

Plus, there is the factor of to whom Littlechild is writing.

Here are a few snatches of George Sims' Ripper claims from the late Victorian and Edwardian Eras:

January 22nd 1899:

Jack, when he committed that crime, was in the last stage of the peculiar mania from which he suffered. He had become grotesque in his ideas as well as bloodthirsty. Almost immediately after this murder he drowned himself in the Thames. his name is perfectly well known to the police. If he hadn't committed suicide he would have been arrested.

July 13th 1902:

In that case they had reduced the only possible Jacks to seven, then by a further exhaustive inquiry to three, and were about to fit these three people's movements in with the dates of the various murders when the one and only genuine Jack saved further trouble by being found drowned in the Thames, into which he had flung himself, a raving lunatic, after the last and most appalling mutilation of the whole series.

April 5th, 1903:

"Jack the Ripper" was known, was identified, and is dead. Let him rest.

July 31st 1904:

The objectionable double was the demented doctor who committed the terrible Jack the Ripper outrages.

Sept. 22nd 1907:

The other theory in support of which I have some curious information, puts the crime down to a young American medical student who was in London during the whole time of the murders, and who, according to statements of certain highly-respectable people who knew him, made on two occasions an endeavour to obtain a certain internal organ, which for his purpose had to be removed from, as he put it, '"the almost living body."


If you measure what Littlechild wrote against what Sims had written for the public, over several years, then arguably the retired police chief was disputing the suspect's name, perhaps his nationality, and that he had not been put under arrest.

But Littlechild was not disputing that it was 'believed' 'Dr T' had taken his own life, or that he was a 'deviant', middle-aged, affluent doctor -- of sorts -- nor that he was a very likely Whitechapel suspect being pursued by the police.

Littlechild was not taking away the status of the suspect away from Sims, but rather he was disputing the theme that it was a near-triumph for CID, rather than an Anderson debacle.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, have you ever tried stand up comedy? You might find it easier than writing books.

I have a natural flair for both

[mklhawley]

From the New York Daily Tribune -

Here is a decent follow-up to Stewart's post. Please click here and check out Post 2.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=9398

Sincerely,

Mike

[Stewart P Evans]

Thanks

[ATTACH]12328[/ATTACH]
Here is a decent follow-up to Stewart's post. Please click here and check out Post 2.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=9398

Sincerely,
Mike

Thanks for that Mike. As a near Dublin born, Catholic, Irish-American I fail to understand how anyone would see Tumblety as anything but an Irish Nationalist sympathiser with anti-English feelings.

[Lechmere]

The Private of the Buffs by Sir Francis Hastings Doyle

Last night, among his fellow roughs,
He jested, quaffed, and swore;
A drunken private of the Buffs,
Who never looked before.
To-day, beneath the foeman's frown,
He stands in Elgin's place,
Ambassador from Britain's crown,
And type of all her race.

Poor, reckless, rude, low-born, untaught,
Bewildered, and alone,
A heart, with English instinct fraught,
He yet can call his own.
Ay, tear his body limb from limb,
Bring cord or axe or flame,
He only knows that not through him
Shall England come to shame.

Far Kentish hop-fields round him seemed,
Like dreams, to come and go;
Bright leagues of cherry-blossom gleamed,
One sheet of living snow;
The smoke above his father's door
In gray soft eddyings hung;
Must he then watch it rise no more,
Doomed by himself so young?

Yes, honor calls!--with strength like steel
He put the vision by;
Let dusky Indians whine and kneel,
An English lad must die.
And thus, with eyes that would not shrink,
With knee to man unbent,
Unfaltering on its dreadful brink,
To his red grave he went.

Vain mightiest fleets of iron framed,
Vain those all-shattering guns,
Unless proud England keep untamed
The strong heart of her sons;
So let his name through Europe ring,--
A man of mean estate,
Who died, as firm as Sparta's king,
Because his soul was great.

Private Moyse of the 3rd East Kent Regiment (‘the Buffs’) was captured during the Second China War in 1860. He was beheaded for refusing to kowtow to one of the Chinese commanders.
In common with a huge number of soldiers in Queen Victoria’s army, Moyse was actually Irish.

[lynn cates]

money talks

Hello Mr. Evans.

"As a near Dublin born, Catholic, Irish-American I fail to understand how anyone would see Tumblety as anything but an Irish Nationalist sympathiser with anti-English feelings."

Except for the "American" part (and possibly place of birth), could not the same argument be adduced for Millen, Caroll-Tevis and Casey? Yet all of them were on the British payroll as spies.

The remuneration for men like Frank Millen was nothing short of incredible.

Cheers.
LC

[Stewart P Evans]

Millen

Hello Mr. Evans.
"As a near Dublin born, Catholic, Irish-American I fail to understand how anyone would see Tumblety as anything but an Irish Nationalist sympathiser with anti-English feelings."
Except for the "American" part (and possibly place of birth), could not the same argument be adduced for Millen, Caroll-Tevis and Casey? Yet all of them were on the British payroll as spies.
The remuneration for men like Frank Millen was nothing short of incredible.
Cheers.
LC

If you have studied the likes of Millen and those of a similar ilk, money, status and often internal factions and jealousies were the things that drove them into their apparently perfidious activities that resulted in some spectacular failures of Nationalist plotting. In Millen's case he was particularly adept at misleading all who dealt with him.

In Tumblety's case he had independent wealth and freedom of movement and he made known anti-English and pro-Irish remarks so I do not see how he may be compared to someone like the military man Millen whose activities were confined to a considerably different area of operations. But I agree, it is amazing how both sides could be fooled by the likes of Millen whilst he continued to feather his own nest.

[lynn cates]

motivation

Hello Mr. Evans.

"In Millen's case he was particularly adept at misleading all who dealt with him."

Precisely. It appears that some of his schemes were kept close from even his own family.

I once thought that people like him were motivated by king and country. Not a bit of it. As you say, money and jealousy were the true motivators. Not to mention hurt pride--as with Sir Edward to Michael Davitt in October 1888.

Cheers.
LC

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Mike.

I'll submit to SPE's comments.

The only problem with this non answer is that I asked you a valid question, one which Stewart didn’t even attempt to answer, so saying you will submit to Stewart’s post is evading the question altogether.

Of course I already know the answer to the question: that Littlechild never said that Tumblety, as a suspect, was "the most likely one." This was a mistake on your part (one which Stewart, oddly, didn’t bother to correct).

Let me repeat what I posted earlier with the word “very” (which was not consciously removed on my part, apologies) inserted. Littlechild said that "amongst the suspects, and to my mind a very likely one, was a Dr. T" but he doesn't state that Tumblety was "the" most likely one just that he was a very likely suspect among others.

Littlechild even tells us that Tumblety “was not known as a ‘Sadist,’ and then adds, significantly, “which the murderer unquestionably was.” (my emphasis) So Littlechild was saying that Tumblety wasn’t the Ripper but merely, as he wrote, a very likely suspect but not the murderer himself.

The comment, 'a very likely one', from the chief inspector of Special Branch twenty five years later can only mean Tumblety was a suspect to remember.

Yes, but only to Littlechild and he wasn’t part of the Whitechapel Murders Investigation. No one else, especially not Anderson, who Tumbletyites like to claim sent Inspector Andrews to Canada after the doctor so you would think he would know all about him, name him as a suspect let alone claim that he was the Ripper. And Adrian Morris pointed out that Tumblety was the perfect suspect for Littlechild because he was an anti-Irish cop who later worked for the Marquis of Queensbury in order to get evidence to send Oscar Wilde to jail for homosexual activities.

It may be that Littlechild’s own prejudices are what made Tumblety a “very Likely suspect,” and nothing more.

Wolf.

[jason_c]

[ATTACH]12328[/ATTACH]


Here is a decent follow-up to Stewart's post. Please click here and check out Post 2.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=9398

Sincerely,

Mike

He's just as much promoting himself as he is the cause.

[Jonathan H]

The problem with that view; that Littlechild was just saying Tumblety was a suspect, and perhaps not a very important one, is that it does not place in context to whom he is writing, quite apart from isolating it from the newspaper accounts of 1888, 1889.

Nor does this revisionist view place it in context as why Jack Littlechild is writing to George Sims, or compare it with the other writings by the same writer on this subject.

An examination of all the sources shows that the ex-police chief is questioning the 'Drowned Doctor' profile as somehow mistaken, or off-track.

Which it is, either as an accurate portrait of Druitt or Tumblety, yet contains elements of both.

That Littlechild is writing that the fiend was a sadist but Tumblety was not known as one, does not mean that he thinks the American was not a sadist, just that it was not part of his known reputation -- just as being a serial killer of prostitutes would not be known about him either.

[mklhawley]

Hi Wolf,

I'd like to add to Jonathan's excellent rebuttal of your flawed logic. Just as Jonathan has stated, you're taking Littlechild out of context as to whom he was writing to and to what he was writing about a full twenty five years later. After discussing the 'Jack the Ripper' term, he then goes back to Tumblety-type abnormalities (in his mind) and how they are given to violence: "It is very strange how those given to 'Contrary sexual instinct' and 'degenerates' are given to cruelty." Sounds like he's a little more convinced than you think.

You've argued the 'the' vs. 'a' point before, but it's weak. Keep in mind, NO ONE saw the murders and since no one was admitting to them, no one can be 100% certain who the killer was. In view of this, 'in connection with the Whitechapel murders but amongst the suspects, and to my mind A very likely one'" will produce more credibility than 'in connection with the Whitechapel murders but amongst the suspects, and to my mind THE very likely one' to a man (Sims) who is convinced the killer was Dr. D.

To minimize the importance of Littlechild during the killings is also foul hearty. Trevor's info even shows Special Branch had their fingers in the Whitechapel murder case. Littlechild most likely already knew of Tumblety because of his Irish issues, thus, most likely had a dossier on him.

It's interesting how ripperologists most often say we need to take any comments from Anderson with a grain of salt because of his clandestine background, but when it comes to Tumblety we MUST take what he says at face value. Sounds like cherry picking to me.

Sincerely,

Mike

[sleekviper]

The origin of "Very" is "True", so isn't Littlechild saying that to him, Doctor T. was the real(true) one among the suspects?