Seaside Home

[Monty]

Sure.

Honestly speaking, that's the only valid reason I can think of.

I also think people get too hung up on the 'official' aspect of this event.

Monty

[Bridewell]

Interesting idea, Colin.

I've just looked at the orphanage in the 1891 census, and there were 250 children.

I reckon if they'd locked Kosminski in with them, he'd have confessed.

250 would indicate a very large vehicle - or a train a la St Trinians.

[Bridewell]

Maybe the issue lays with the witness rather than the suspect Colin?

Monty

That's the only plausible reason I could come up with for seeing the actual Seaside Home as a logical choice; namely that the witness was in or near Brighton and it was thought easier to take Kosminski to the witness than the witness to Kosminski. I can't see either Schwartz or Lawende being a good fit for that scenario though. Can I PM you with another idea?

[Bridewell]

Forgot to say that I wasn't aware of yours and Adam's involvement with the Orphans' Fund or that you had had access to their records. I take it you've seen no entry recording a hastily arranged day at the seaside for all the boys and girls then.

[Monty]

Maybe the issue lays with the witness rather than the suspect Colin?

Monty

[Bridewell]

Your post interested me enough to lull me out of semi retirement Colin.

As you may be aware, Adam Wood and I have worked closely with the Met & City Orphans Fund (the successor to the orphanage) and have viewed their records. Whilst we have not gone through all with a fine tooth comb as yet, we haven't noted any reference to the orphanage being used in such a way at any stage. It seems the place was used solely for the orphans, with police officialdom being limited to VIP visits, charity events and committee meetings. We've not seen anything with reference to police work, though I admit it's unlikely such a covert operation would be recorded in the orphanages records.

That's not to say I dismiss the idea. It's certainly a new one on me, and worth looking in to.

Regards
Monty

Ps. I hope you are well chap.

Thanks, Neil. I'm glad I posted it now as I wasn't sure how it would be received. I looked at the direct route from Colney Hatch to Brighton and it seems to me that it would pass right through the middle of London. Why. if Kosminski was the suspect and Colney Hatch his location, would you send him, in effect past your own front door, to an obscure location on the south coast. To me (and it may be just me) that doesn't make sense.

[Robert]

Interesting idea, Colin.

I've just looked at the orphanage in the 1891 census, and there were 250 children.

I reckon if they'd locked Kosminski in with them, he'd have confessed.

[Monty]

Your post interested me enough to lull me out of semi retirement Colin.

As you may be aware, Adam Wood and I have worked closely with the Met & City Orphans Fund (the successor to the orphanage) and have viewed their records. Whilst we have not gone through all with a fine tooth comb as yet, we haven't noted any reference to the orphanage being used in such a way at any stage. It seems the place was used solely for the orphans, with police officialdom being limited to VIP visits, charity events and committee meetings. We've not seen anything with reference to police work, though I admit it's unlikely such a covert operation would be recorded in the orphanages records.

That's not to say I dismiss the idea. It's certainly a new one on me, and worth looking in to.

Regards
Monty

Ps. I hope you are well chap.

[Bridewell]

Alternative Location

Whilst holding the utmost respect for the career of Donald Sutherland Swanson, it has always jarred with me that the confrontation ID which he reports in the Marginalia took place so far away from London. I have taken to wondering whether DSS may have been mistaken in his recall of the venue (especially if not present in person). To this end I have done some, admittedly cursory, research as to whether or not there might have been an alternative location, amenable to both Met & City Forces, closer to London which might have served the purpose and have been erroneously alluded to, years later, as "the Seaside Home".

"Police Orphanage (Metropolitan and City)

Twickenham - President, Col. Sir Charles Warren, C.G.M.G.; Vice Presidents, Lieut-Col. Pearson, A.C. Bruce Esq., J. Monro Esq. and Col. Sir James Fraser K.C.B. (City Police); Chairman of Board of Managers & Treasurer, Lt-Col Monsell; Sec. Arthur J. Kestin."

This reads like a Who's Who of the London Police at that time and I suspect, therefore, that the presence of even very senior officers at such an out of town location might have passed unremarked. Perhaps the suspect was "sent with difficulty", not because of his own circumstances, but because the orphans had to be packed off to the seaside for the day. (Colney Hatch to Brighton would have been about 75 miles via the more direct route then available; Colney Hatch to Twickenham about 20 miles.)

[Lechmere]

Kosminsky was born in Klodowa which is in present day Poland.
In 1815, following the Congress of Vienna Poland was made an autonomous kingdom within Tsarist Russia. Klodowa was unambiguously within the Kingdom of Poland and the non Jewish inhabitants would have overwhelmingly spoken Polish.
Russia abolished this status in 1867 and incorporated Poland into Russia. However the name of the territory was not changed until 1888 (!), from when Russia called it Privislinsky Krai, which means Vistula Land (after the main river). However it was still colloquially called Poland in the west and one of the Tsar’s titles remained Tsar of Poland.
Hence during the period between Kosminsky’s birth in 1865 and his emigration to England in about 1882, it would have been quite legitimate to say that he was born in Poland.

[The Good Michael]

Paul,

Thanks for the post. Call me thick, but this is the first time that I read that the Police Seaside Home was for only Metro police. Or at least I don't remember seeing it in print before.

Mike

[PaulWilliams]

I attach a newspaper clipping stating that James Munro made a donation to the Police Seaside Home in 1891.

[Bridewell]

Been There!

With regard to the Hove Seaside home the page below might be of interest:

http://www.stgeorgesharrogate.org/stg01gurney.htm

Hi Chris,

It's still going & has been expanded greatly over the years. I spent a very pleasant period of convalescence there in late 2001 & the facilities are top class.

Best Wishes, Bridewell.

[robhouse]

I think people still thought of Poland, if not as an independent country, at least as a fairly well defined area within Russia. See below, a close up of Isaac Abrahams' 1891 census entry, which lists "where born" as "Poland Russia."

Incidentally, I do not know what language would have been spoken in Klodawa at that time. I assume Polish, but it is possible that the people there spoke German. I think I remember reading that the people in a nearby Polish town (Kolo?) spoke German generally.

[harry]

When a person visits or immigrates to another country,his nationality is accepted to be what his documents declare him to be.Normally,but not always,todays traveller or immigrant uses a passport.If a person has dual citizenship, and is entitled to have two passports,it is the one that is presented on arrival that determines what nationality he will be known by,in the country in which he lands.England of the 1800's,would I believe,be very similar.