Seaside Home

[Chris]

Errata

Call me simple-minded, but I suggest that by "Polish" Anderson simply meant someone from Poland - and the fact that Poland was occupied by other powers at that time was evidently no bar to that usage, or he wouldn't have used it!

[Raoul's Obsession]

I think you two are about 90% in agreemetn and 10% in disagreement. By the sounds of it, you are both arguing from almost the same position but somehow are trying to disagree.

Errata, I take you point about phenotype/stereotype. In all likelihood, what was written on someone's birth certificate, or what nationality they personally thought themselves to be, never came into Anderson's thought process. I think it would be enough to say that the people from a relatively diverse geographical area that was quite different from London would all have been bundled together in the type of generalised statements that he was making. People are much better at telling appart groups within their own culture/country than people from other cultures/countries & racial groups. There's plenty of evidence on that. I think it is just because we are more used to making distinctions between our own group. Overall, Polish or Russian - I doubt Anderson cared.

(this is in no way trying to say there are no actual differences and no offense is meant to anyone. As someone from Luxembourg I wouldn't want you to call me Belgium).

Raoul

[Errata]

Errata,

In Kazakhstan, where I live, there are many Russians who define themselves as such... maybe all. They never say they are Kazakh because they aren't. They are Russians living in Kazakhstan. My guess is that Kosminski spoke Polish, lived in a Poland that was somewhat hostile to its Russian master, and identified himself as Polish. No way would he say he was Russian. I'm sure he didn't define himself as Russian Orthodox either though that was the religion of most Russians, nor as Catholic, though that was the main Polish religion. I'm sure it doesn't even matter. A suspect is a suspect.

Mike

True enough. The only reason it would be a consideration is that it is entirely possible for someone from his town to identify themselves as Russian, like my grandmother. And if that were the case it would be extraordinary for Anderson to find out he was from Poland if he identified as Russian. Is all.

I wonder if he did speak Polish? My grandmother spoke Russian, but spoke the Polish Yiddish dialect. I had assumed that was the norm, but for all I know my family moved to a Russian neighborhood in New York and that's why she spoke Russian. Hmm. Well thats probably neither here nor there.

[The Good Michael]

Errata,

In Kazakhstan, where I live, there are many Russians who define themselves as such... maybe all. They never say they are Kazakh because they aren't. They are Russians living in Kazakhstan. My guess is that Kosminski spoke Polish, lived in a Poland that was somewhat hostile to its Russian master, and identified himself as Polish. No way would he say he was Russian. I'm sure he didn't define himself as Russian Orthodox either though that was the religion of most Russians, nor as Catholic, though that was the main Polish religion. I'm sure it doesn't even matter. A suspect is a suspect.

Mike

[Errata]

Errata

But what do you suppose Anderson could have meant by "Polish," if people from parts of Polish territory under foreign rule (i.e. all of it) are excluded?

Well, to boil it down to it's simplest form, anyone who identified themselves as Polish.

Poland successfully rebelled a few times. Well, maybe not successfully as it didn't stick until World War I, but it did have stretches of time in which it was independent. The Austro-Hungarian Empire also had something quite a bit more like a client state than Russia did. That would retain a Polish identity. The Russians had that at times, but towards the end it was certainly considered Russian. Also the borders changed quite a bit. There is a a small town on the border of Poland that is famous for not having two successive generations born in the same country for about 300 years.

As for what Anderson may have meant, I don't know. He probably said what he meant. Personally I have a suspicion he was referring to a... phenotype maybe? Stereotype? I think he was referring to people who looked a certain way as Polish Jews, regardless of their Polishness or their Jewishness. Not PC, but not entirely without a single grain of truth. I cannot even remotely imagine that all of these cops asked their searchees what their country of familial origin was, or what religion they were.

Poland is complicated and Anderson... just isn't. Which is fine, but if officially Poland doesn't exist, and Anderson is not referring to the citizen of a foreign country, then how does he define Polish, especially if a great deal of Poles do not consider themselves Polish? My best friend says she is Russian, because she left the USSR in 1988. Now her grandmother's house where she grew up is in the Ukraine. She doesn't consider herself Ukranian. It's the whole land war in Asia thing. Even if you win you still don't know where you are.

[Chris]

Errata

But what do you suppose Anderson could have meant by "Polish," if people from parts of Polish territory under foreign rule (i.e. all of it) are excluded?

[Errata]

Yes, he was born in Klodawa in Poland. There are many things we don't know about Aaron Kozminski, but his nationality is not one of them.

I 100% believe that he was born in Klodawa, which is currently in Poland. But if he was a Russian subject at the time of his birth, does that make him Russian or Polish? And if his immigration papers say Russian, because technically that would be true, does England see him as Russian or Polish?

I'm not at all certain it matters, but if his papers say he is Russian, and if he said he was Russian (which is probably 50% likely) then if Anderson says it was a Polish Jew, and Swanson says it's Kosminski who would be considered a Russian Jew under a bunch of circumstances, then there is a bit of a disconnect.

By the way, I'm almost certain thats where my grandmother was from. I have to check her birth certificate again and run it through a cyrillic pronunciation guide. Though I thought it was Klodava or Koldava. Maybe the town produced legions of terrible people and serial killers, because my grandmother was awful.

[Chris]

I think Kosminski's birth records are on this side. He was from Klodowa I believe. Rob and Chris have done a lot of work in this area with Rob hoofing it to Poland maybe 2 years ago.

Yes, he was born in Klodawa in Poland. There are many things we don't know about Aaron Kozminski, but his nationality is not one of them.

[timsta]

Another "seaside home"

From a quick Google search for "seaside home" and "asylum":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holloway_Sanatorium

"Holloway Sanatorium was an institution[1] for the treatment of the insane, located on 22 acres (89,000 m2) of parkland near the town of Virginia Water, Surrey ..."

...

"The Sanatorium expanded in time by buying other properties. In 1891 Hove Villa, Brighton was purchased by the Governors as a home where patients could benefit from the fresh seaside air."

... which led me to:

http://books.google.com/books?id=SI0OAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA432&lpg=PA432&dq=%22hove+villa%22+brighton+sanatorium&source=bl&ots=cp4QR1rdMx&sig=_UX8WBcOmh1B2rUFfDLxh3PqXgE&hl=en&ei=5JdmTfmxAsaugQeanoSTDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22hove%20villa%22%20brighton%20sanatorium&f=false

... and:

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/pdf_extract/42/177/457-c

Anyone have a BJP subscription?

Timsta

[Errata]

I think we all know about this. The site owner stole some information from this site it seems and is including that in his hate dialogue. His hate has nothing to do with the viability of Kosminski. It seems that you want to do your best to downplay Kosminski as a suspect, but remember this is a suspect who just happened to be a Polish Jew.

Cheers,

Mike

Oh I know. I wasn't saying that anyone here was associated with that. I was saying "that right there is wacky Jack the Ripper conspiracy theorist". Makes me look eminently reasonable.

It's true. I don't buy Kosminski as JtR. Not because of anything Kosminski did or did not do, is or is not. It's because the police and officials involved do not behave as though they believe that he was Jack the Ripper. I find Anderson's comments on Polish Jews distasteful and not terribly confidence inspiring. The description of the Seaside Home encounter seems so Rube Goldbergian. And if people think that George Chapman was a Polish Jew when he was a Polish Catholic... I don't think these are insignificant doubts to throw on the story.

[The Good Michael]

Errata,

I think Kosminski's birth records are on this side. He was from Klodowa I believe. Rob and Chris have done a lot of work in this area with Rob hoofing it to Poland maybe 2 years ago.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

You want a conspiracy theory? Here you go. Right up at the top of the old search engine.

I think we all know about this. The site owner stole some information from this site it seems and is including that in his hate dialogue. His hate has nothing to do with the viability of Kosminski. It seems that you want to do your best to downplay Kosminski as a suspect, but remember this is a suspect who just happened to be a Polish Jew. Feigenbaum is a suspect who just happened to be German. Tumbletly happened to be American with Irish and Canadian connections thrown in. Because Kelly and Tumblety had Irish connections and their were Irish constables at the death scene during the investigation, the Irish have come into question a lot. This is also, no doubt, due to the IRA activities in recent years and the inability for folks to get the lingering hatred out of their heads. Yet, no one gets all flustered about Irish being blamed. Don't think anyone is down on Jews. There are many little connections to things Jewish throughout the Ripper saga, and it is natural to try and connect some of the dots, like the Fenian conspirators do on the Irish side.

Cheers,

Mike

[Errata]

Kosminski was Polish. It was a part of Russia at the time, but he was definitely Polish.

Mike

Yeah, it's a dodgy business. This is one of those situations where borders might not matter as much as self identification. My grandmother was from that region and always identified as Russian. Her immigration papers said she was Russian. After the start of the Cold War two of her sisters started identifying themselves as Polish, but not the rest of the family. The family spoke Russian, and Polyish, which is the Polish dialect of Yiddish.

We don't know how Kosminski referred to himself, and we don't know how he was identified in the community or in immigration records. And we don't know how the police identified him. If they looked at his immigration records and it says he came from Russia, and he said he was Polish, how do they reconcile that? My instinct is to say that they would go with official records over self-identification, but if you have someone who is convinced the Ripper is a Polish Jew, would they twist things about a bit to make that true? Identify a Russian Jew as a Polish Jew? Identify a Polish Catholic as a Polish Jew?

It's just never as neat as it seems like it should be.

[Errata]

Because its far easier to dismiss evidence by claiming a conspiracy.

I have little doubt that an identification of some sort took place. The success of this "identification" is another matter. Obviously it wasnt wholely successful for one reason or another. Wether it was as a result of the reasons given by Anderson and Swanson is a perfectly legitimate debate. Claiming a conspiracy, like suicide, is the cowards way out.

Well, I think we should be clear here. There is no evidence to dismiss. There is an account. Someone is describing something to do with the case. They offer no evidence. As such it holds about the same weight as newspaper articles who claim to know the killer. The difference is, these are two men who should actually be able to offer some evidence, but they don't. And maybe for a very good reason, but that still doesn't make it evidence.

I'm not claiming a conspiracy. I'm suggesting that the fallibility of your average man could prompt these statements just as easily as the truth. My grandfather did not conspire with my parents to lie to me about how he actually lost three toes. He just felt the real story was embarrassing.

You want a conspiracy theory? Here you go. Right up at the top of the old search engine.

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-aaron-kosminsky-jack-the-ripper.html

[The Good Michael]

There's just a whole lot of wrong in that statement. And if that's the basis for suspicion of a Polish Jew, that's a bit of a problem. Also, I think Kosminski was Russian.

Kosminski was Polish. It was a part of Russia at the time, but he was definitely Polish.

Mike