Seaside Home

[Errata]

Why the evidence leans in favor of the Polish Jew: Who in their right mind(s) would concoct such a story of having someone, apparently struggling ("with difficulty") emotionally and/or physically, be dragged to Hove or any place else in a day of no rapid transit? Was it because it was a genius idea to create a Seaside Home that could be confused with many other homes, and that because of the confusion, no witnesses to the event could be uncovered. That, my friends, is giving Anderson and Swanson too much credit as co-conspirators. It simply must have happened in some fashion, details notwithstanding.

Cheers,

Mike

See, I could buy it happening in some fashion and then getting the "walking to school in three feet of snow uphill both ways" treatment in later life. I don't think it happened as related.

[Errata]

Which notions were these?

Swanson may have forgotten the name of his witness or simply not deemed it important enough. He was writing many years after the event and possibly without the aid of notes.

Not Swanson, Anderson. He wrote

"One did not need to be a Sherlock Holmes to discover that the criminal was a sexual maniac of a virulent type ; that he was living in the immediate vicinity of the scenes of the murders ; and that, if he was not living absolutely alone, his people knew of his guilt, and refused to give
him up to justice. During my absence abroad the Police had made a house-to-house search for him, investigating the case of every man in the
district whose circumstances were such that he could go and come and get rid of his blood-stains in secret. And the conclusion we came to was
that he and his people were certain low-class Polish Jews ; for jt is a remarkable fact that people of that class in the East End will not give
up one of their number to Gentile justice. "

There's just a whole lot of wrong in that statement. And if that's the basis for suspicion of a Polish Jew, that's a bit of a problem. Also, I think Kosminski was Russian.

[The Good Michael]

Suicide takes some balls, I think. The Japanese have made an art of it. Me, I don't mind a little shame in my life if it keeps me alive.

I agree about your points regarding the success of the identification.

Mike

[jason_c]

Why the evidence leans in favor of the Polish Jew: Who in their right mind(s) would concoct such a story of having someone, apparently struggling ("with difficulty") emotionally and/or physically, be dragged to Hove or any place else in a day of no rapid transit? Was it because it was a genius idea to create a Seaside Home that could be confused with many other homes, and that because of the confusion, no witnesses to the event could be uncovered. That, my friends, is giving Anderson and Swanson too much credit as co-conspirators. It simply must have happened in some fashion, details notwithstanding.

Cheers,

Mike

Because its far easier to dismiss evidence by claiming a conspiracy.

I have little doubt that an identification of some sort took place. The success of this "identification" is another matter. Obviously it wasnt wholely successful for one reason or another. Wether it was as a result of the reasons given by Anderson and Swanson is a perfectly legitimate debate. Claiming a conspiracy, like suicide, is the cowards way out.

[The Good Michael]

Why the evidence leans in favor of the Polish Jew: Who in their right mind(s) would concoct such a story of having someone, apparently struggling ("with difficulty") emotionally and/or physically, be dragged to Hove or any place else in a day of no rapid transit? Was it because it was a genius idea to create a Seaside Home that could be confused with many other homes, and that because of the confusion, no witnesses to the event could be uncovered. That, my friends, is giving Anderson and Swanson too much credit as co-conspirators. It simply must have happened in some fashion, details notwithstanding.

Cheers,

Mike

[jason_c]

Ok. 2. Although to be fair, only one of them spun the whole Seaside Home cloak and dagger scenario. All Anderson said was that it was a Polish Jew who a witness recognized but would not testify against. I'm not totally sure I would trust any assertions of Anderson that it was a Polish Jew, as he had some peculiar notions about them. Of course, we don't know who the witness was, or what he identified the "Polish Jew" as doing. No one saw any of these women killed. And why not identify the witness? If its your own personal notes, why name the killer and not the witness? Anyway, that's even assuming the marginalia is genuine. Or accurate.

Which notions were these?

Swanson may have forgotten the name of his witness or simply not deemed it important enough. He was writing many years after the event and possibly without the aid of notes.

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

All good points. I think the same type of argument can be made that if K. were visited by Scotland Yard while institutionalized and if this occurred on more than one occasion (a likely occurrence) that word would have spread to the outside.

c.d.

I feel confident that if Scotland Yard had to invent a "Kosminski's Cousin Larry" to go check in on him every so often, they could have done so. The poor man had no idea who where or when he was most of the time. I don't think that people would believe him if he ever got around to noticing that he didn't have a Cousin Larry.

[Errata]

That should read two old men then.

Ok. 2. Although to be fair, only one of them spun the whole Seaside Home cloak and dagger scenario. All Anderson said was that it was a Polish Jew who a witness recognized but would not testify against. I'm not totally sure I would trust any assertions of Anderson that it was a Polish Jew, as he had some peculiar notions about them. Of course, we don't know who the witness was, or what he identified the "Polish Jew" as doing. No one saw any of these women killed. And why not identify the witness? If its your own personal notes, why name the killer and not the witness? Anyway, that's even assuming the marginalia is genuine. Or accurate.

[c.d.]

Hi Errata,

All good points. I think the same type of argument can be made that if K. were visited by Scotland Yard while institutionalized and if this occurred on more than one occasion (a likely occurrence) that word would have spread to the outside.

c.d.

[jason_c]

I can't even a little credit the idea that someone thought taking a guy in cuffs on a four hour carriage ride attracts less attention than say, calling the witness in to fill out some paperwork and saying "oh hey check out that guy in the cell. look familiar?"

And if they were trying to get the suspect identified without the suspect knowing he was being identified, it becomes even more ludicrous.

And if the goal was to keep it a secret, how does the witness explain his need to be gone for a day and a night? Why doesn't Kosminski mention to anybody what had happened? Why doesn't the witness? Or any of their families? Why aren't there records of the identification? If you have a guy who has technically gotten away with being JtR, dont you have a file on him that says that in big red letters "This guy was JtR. If he so much as sneezes, shoot him." or something? Don't you make damn sure that you know where he is and what he is doing for the rest of his life?

Or does it make more sense that an old man who has one spectacular failure on his record spins a tale in his memoirs that cannot be disproven that he in fact succeeded, it was the witness who failed.

That should read two old men then.

[Errata]

But what could have limited the choice of venue in this way? And why should the City Police Force have wanted to send the suspect a longer distance than necessary, any more than the Metropolitan Force would have wanted to?

I can't even a little credit the idea that someone thought taking a guy in cuffs on a four hour carriage ride attracts less attention than say, calling the witness in to fill out some paperwork and saying "oh hey check out that guy in the cell. look familiar?"

And if they were trying to get the suspect identified without the suspect knowing he was being identified, it becomes even more ludicrous.

And if the goal was to keep it a secret, how does the witness explain his need to be gone for a day and a night? Why doesn't Kosminski mention to anybody what had happened? Why doesn't the witness? Or any of their families? Why aren't there records of the identification? If you have a guy who has technically gotten away with being JtR, dont you have a file on him that says that in big red letters "This guy was JtR. If he so much as sneezes, shoot him." or something? Don't you make damn sure that you know where he is and what he is doing for the rest of his life?

Or does it make more sense that an old man who has one spectacular failure on his record spins a tale in his memoirs that cannot be disproven that he in fact succeeded, it was the witness who failed.

[Chris]

Perhaps the choice of venue was limited and subject to interference from very conservative City force top brass.

But what could have limited the choice of venue in this way? And why should the City Police Force have wanted to send the suspect a longer distance than necessary, any more than the Metropolitan Force would have wanted to?

[Scorpio]

Perhaps the choice of venue was limited and subject to interference from very conservative City force top brass. I dont see anything sinister in the decision; it was just Victorian beaurocracy in action.

[Chris]

Intelligence then and know is difficult to keep from a growing media, which was especially voracious within The City and Met districts, and some neutral ground outside of Greater London seemed appropriate to them for making a positive ID, which they probably considered a forgone conclusion.

If they really couldn't find anywhere in London that wasn't being watched by the press (which I find very difficult to believe), then why not use somewhere nearby, rather than sending the suspect on a long journey to the coast?

[Scorpio]

I'm still trying to figure out why they felt the need to do the identification outside of London at all. Couldn't they just as easily arrange it in London without making it seem like an identification? Or was sea air a necessary component to their cunning plan?

The police seemed certain that the suspect was the Ripper, as they felt that common sense and there own intuition determined it. Intelligence then and know is difficult to keep from a growing media, which was especially voracious within The City and Met districts, and some neutral ground outside of Greater London seemed appropriate to them for making a positive ID, which they probably considered a forgone conclusion.