The Missing Memorandum

[Stewart P Evans]

Excuse Me

Hi Stewart,
As you are accusing me of an elaborate conspiracy theory, you must also be accusing Robin.
I am certain he would not appreciate that sentiment. I certainly don't.
A simple apology will suffice.
Regards,
Simon

Excuse me, I owe no one an apology - especially you. You are generating an official conspiracy scenario, you have stated as much in the past. Trouble is you are operating with insufficient data. I have accused Robin of nothing, other than suggesting that his memory, after 45 years, like mine, might not be 100%. I am sure that Bob, like me, has suffered from quirks of faulty memory as he gets older - as do I and just about everyone else if they are honest.

[Stewart P Evans]

PDF File

Originally I thought that the PDF file of the Macnaghten memorandum on the Casebook was scanned from the original photocopy that I have. However, as Keith pointed out to me there are the small semi-circular mounting tabs visible at top and bottom indicating that the document had been mounted in the bound PRO volumes of the 1980s. By then it should have borne the stamped on folio numbers and I can only assume that they were 'cleaned off' on the computer for display as a PDF file and as they are not relevant to the document in its original form. I can only assume that this copy was taken from images I supplied years ago. Many of the images on the Casebook are taken from my copies. Perhaps Stephen can clarify this point.

[Stewart P Evans]

Despair

Hi Stewart,
As you are accusing me of an elaborate conspiracy theory, you must also be accusing Robin.
I am certain he would not appreciate that sentiment. I certainly don't.
A simple apology will suffice.
Regards,
Simon

This sort of crap and the third-degree questions simply arouse my ire and leaves me close to abandoning this nonsense in despair. I don't have to answer anyone's questions.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Stewart,

Such petulance.

Here's another fact for your collection.

MEPO 3/141, ff. 177-83 in the National Archives is not written on blue lined foolscap without embossed Metropolitan Police crests.

Playing the faulty memory card really is the last resort.

Regards,

Simon

[Stewart P Evans]

Petulant

Hi Stewart,
Such petulance.
Here's another fact for your collection.
MEPO 3/141, ff. 177-83 in the National Archives is not written on blue lined foolscap without embossed Metropolitan Police crests.
Playing the faulty memory card really is the last resort.
Regards,
Simon

You are enough to try the patience of a saint. I know exactly what sort of paper MEPO 3/141, ff. 177-183 is written on. I have handled the original, photographed it and still have colour photographs of it. And no it is not on blue lined paper.

My 1968 photocopy of the memorandum, all seven pages, is not coloured as it is an early photocopy. However, it is the same document as MEPO 3/141, ff. 177-183 right down to the same tears and creases in the paper. Now as many of the 1888 police reports and documents are written on blue-lined paper I can only assume that Robin's memory is faulty on this point as he would have seen many reports amongst those he examined written on such paper.

However, as I am such a petulant bugger (as you observe) I have had enough of this crap and will participate no further. You can knob off.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Stewart,

Such eloquence and maturity.

"You are not obliged to say anything but it may harm your defence if you fail to mention when questioned something you later rely on . . ."

Regards,

Simon

[Chris]

Regarding the PDF file of the official version on Casebook, it's described as "Courtesy of Thomas Schachner" (http://www.jacktheripper.de/), so he would probably be the best person to ask about its source.

As Stewart notes, it does seem that the official version agrees with Robin Odell's recollections in almost every respect, except for the presence of the embossed stamp and that fact that the paper is not blue or lined.

Just a couple of thoughts. Firstly, I wonder if Robin Odell has looked at a reproduction of the official version, and if so whether he feels it is a different document from the one he saw. And secondly (as I don't have a copy of his book) I wonder if he published any extracts from other documents in the box files, and if so whether any of them might have been on blue lined paper.

[Trevor Marriott]

[QUOTE=Chris;153798]Regarding the PDF file of the official version on Casebook, it's described as "Courtesy of Thomas Schachner" (http://www.jacktheripper.de/), so he would probably be the best person to ask about its source.

As Stewart notes, it does seem that the official version agrees with Robin Odell's recollections in almost every respect, except for the presence of the embossed stamp and that fact that the paper is not blue or lined.

Do you not consider those points to be important then. i would have thought the finding of such an important document would have remained firmly emblazoned in Robins mind.

[mariab]

SPE wrote.
By then it should have borne the stamped on folio numbers and I can only assume that they were 'cleaned off' on the computer for display as a PDF file and as they are not relevant to the document in its original form. I can only assume that this copy was taken from images I supplied years ago. Many of the images on the Casebook are taken from my copies. Perhaps Stephen can clarify this point.
That's precisely why I asked Simon Wood in the thread "Timelining and revealing the MM“(in my post #130) if the CD Jack the Ripper Documents contains pagination on any OTHER documents on it.
I don't wish to get involved in a personal debate, but it has happened to me that a while after having perused archival documents, I had erroneous recollections about letters being on blue paper vs. them being on creme paper. It also has happened to me that I had a recollection of a particular familiar volume at the library being deep green, while in reality it was black or blue. I think that (at least for me) it's easier to remember location (on a particular shelf or page) than color.

[Simon Wood]

Yes, other documents on the JtR CD carry folio numbers.

[mariab]

Simon Wood wrote:
Yes, other documents on the JtR CD carry folio numbers.
Hmmm... That's a tough one. The only scenario I can come up with is, possibly the PRO mounted the MEPO documents in volumes around 1980 and stamped in the pagination LATER? And possibly the Thomas Schachner person acquired a copy of the mounted document BEFORE it got paginated? I assume that SPE's photocopy of the document (produced in the 1960s) predates the “mounting“ of the documents in the 1980s. I think that this makes sense. Or not?
Plus, there is a definite way to establish the truth: IF Thomas Schachner acquired his copy (perhaps a digital one) from the National Archives instead of the PRO, then TNA would certainly have kept documentation of Schachner's order (as all libraries/archives do). If someone goes to TNA and asks, they would establish what exactly happened. (I have conducted such a search in both Italy and Paris, and actually if a digital copy or microfilm of a source exists in a library, it's very easy to find out who ordered it and when. But probably not at the PRO...)

[thomas]

hi there,

the scan was taken from the pro pack and as stewart noted:

"were 'cleaned off' on the computer for display as a PDF file and as they are not relevant to the document in its original form"

apart from that i left them unchanged .-)

take care
thomas.

[thomas]

Simon Wood wrote:
Yes, other documents on the JtR CD carry folio numbers.
Hmmm... That's a tough one. The only scenario I can come up with is, possibly the PRO mounted the MEPO documents in volumes around 1980 and stamped in the pagination LATER? And possibly the Thomas Schachner person acquired a copy of the mounted document BEFORE it got paginated? I assume that SPE's photocopy of the document (produced in the 1960s) predates the “mounting“ of the documents in the 1980s. I think that this makes sense. Or not?
Plus, there is a definite way to establish the truth: IF Thomas Schachner acquired his copy (perhaps a digital one) from the National Archives instead of the PRO, then TNA would certainly have kept documentation of Schachner's order (as all libraries/archives do). If someone goes to TNA and asks, they would establish what exactly happened. (I have conducted such a search in both Italy and Paris, and actually if a digital copy or microfilm of a source exists in a library, it's very easy to find out who ordered it and when. But probably not at the PRO...)

>> btw maria:
instead of talking about "THE THOMAS SCHACHNER PERSON" and making assumptions, just ask me personally...maybe "the person" answers!
thx!

[Johnr]

We need a Catalogue of What JTR Collector Has What?

Hello Maria,
All interesting thoughts and deductions on this thread, in my opinion.
Its good to see a result showing people's deductive processes work!

If you look at the VERY bottom of this page, you will see the name
"Thomas Schachner" !!!
(Hi Thomas!.Thanks for all that you and Stephen Ryder do. And Ally).

Hello Stewart,
I was particularly pleased that this discussion teased out the name of one of those mysterious unnamed, people who had had such untrammelled access to the MEPO papers on JTR investigations, back in the 1960's.
I think I have read mention of others in yours and Keith Skinner's
'The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Sourcebook' . In 'The Missing Suspects Files' chapter38.(Robinson: London: 2001).
(Though, just quickly glancing through it, I notice SPE was of the opinion the files went missing in the '70's and '80's).
Surely, given the loose arrangement, things could easily have gone missing from such a large bundle(s), in the 1960's too?
Question: Has anyone approached Joe Gaute's family- or even the family of the MEPO policeman who gave him access, to discover if any "overlooked" JTR papers are still lying about in back cupboards and in shoe boxes?
After all, Donald Rumbelow had this to say about the loose arrangement governing police records back in the 1950's:
(A superintendent..lecturing to the Metropolitan Police History Society several years ago.) " He told us that most of the early papers of the Special Brach were thought to have been destroyed by a Fenian bomb in 1884 which was planted against the wall of their office. Yet some papers had recently come to light. The widow of a Special Branch pensioner asked them to buy the contents of a large suitcase which she brought into their office. It was full of Special Branch papers, which her husband had kept under the bed!"(p133, The Complete Jack the Ripper:Penguin: 1988.

Keep up the good work Stewart, and thanks for the generous way you share.
JOHN RUFFELS.

[Trevor Marriott]

Simon Wood wrote:
Yes, other documents on the JtR CD carry folio numbers.
Hmmm... That's a tough one. The only scenario I can come up with is, possibly the PRO mounted the MEPO documents in volumes around 1980 and stamped in the pagination LATER? And possibly the Thomas Schachner person acquired a copy of the mounted document BEFORE it got paginated? I assume that SPE's photocopy of the document (produced in the 1960s) predates the “mounting“ of the documents in the 1980s. I think that this makes sense. Or not?
Plus, there is a definite way to establish the truth: IF Thomas Schachner acquired his copy (perhaps a digital one) from the National Archives instead of the PRO, then TNA would certainly have kept documentation of Schachner's order (as all libraries/archives do). If someone goes to TNA and asks, they would establish what exactly happened. (I have conducted such a search in both Italy and Paris, and actually if a digital copy or microfilm of a source exists in a library, it's very easy to find out who ordered it and when. But probably not at the PRO...)

Well theres a job for you Maria you cant detect crimes from sitting behind a desk you have to get out and do some leg work