Cutbush and Cutbush?

[Chris Scott]

Thomas Taylor Cutbush and Charles Cutbush being brothers is the only way Thomas Hayne Cutbush could have been the nephew of Superintendent Charles Cutbush.
But they were not brothers

The other way Charles and Thomas Hayne could have been uncle and nephew would have been if Charles and Thomas Taylor were brothers IN LAW, i.e. if Charles had married Thomas Taylor's sister.. but again this was not the case and I remain convinced that Charles and Thomas Hayne were not relatives by blood or marriage in any way

[Natalie Severn]

Both boys were given to strange delusions about things.In the case of Charles Cutbush he had serious delusions about the Pope and all types of Popery and according to his orbit in the Times he was convinced he was being poisoned by Papists via his water supply.
Thomas had the same sort of paranoid delusion about his doctors who he was convinced were trying to poison him with certain types of medicine.One day he actually armed himself with a gun ,went over to Westminster Bridge Road where his doctor had his surgery and crept up behind him as he was writing at his desk.Fortunately his doctor realised someone was behind him and rounded on him before Thomas could harm him.
Anyway I think its important to remind ourselves about what they had in common apart from their surnames.
Cheers Folk!

[Debra A]

Hi Jonathan,

No matter which of the two men was his father, Thomas would have been a Cutbush. Pretty convenient from Charles and Kate's point of view. The two families lived fairly close, so it's all really nothing more than the long arm of coincidence at work.

If it's true, then Thomas Hayne was illegitimate, born of an adulterous affair between his mother and a high-ranking Scotland Yard officer. During the LVP such things were frowned upon, so when the sh*t hit the fan Macnaghten put the best spin on it.

Regards,

Simon

Hi all,
While it's not impossible that Thomas was the illegitimate son of Charles Henry it would have been a pretty big coincidence that Charles happened to have an affair with a woman who happened to be married to a man with the same surname! Such an event would make more sense if Thomas Taylor and Charles Henry were actually brothers or related in some way.

Thomas Taylor Cutbush left his wife a little time after the death of their second son. As is well known, Kate and her son Thomas were living in Albert Street Lambeth in 1871 along with Kate's parents, whereas Charles Cutbush was living in Westminster in 1871, his daughter Amelia was born there in Westminster in the late 1860's too, before that he was living in Hythe Kent so he most likely didn't become a 'neighbour' of Kate and Thomas until much later on. Roy touched on this subject in a recent thread but I can't locate it at the moment.

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

Did MacNaughtens actions perhaps inspire the song?.....Cutbush pity limits?

best wishes

Phil

[Natalie Severn]

Supt. Charles Cutbush was very much a Johnny Upright.I doubt he was carrying on with Kate somehow.Maybe they were kindred spirits and had had a blackout when it happened.

[Jonathan H]

Coincidences happen.

Until somebody experiences one, or stumbles upon one, and then feels that mystical and/or sinister forces are involved.

A man could father a child to a women who was married to a man with the surname. It may have something to do with even how they first met?

On the other hand, historical methodology says that if a source is totally at odds with every other available source then it is probably wrong.

If wrong, why is it wrong?

Why did Mac link two people who only shared the same surname and in such a potentially inflammatory way?

Simon and I agree -- up to a point -- that the Mac Report, official version, is a very slippery document. Ostrog is clearly not the Ripper, and was never a suspect, and yet there he sits.

In a previous post on this thread I outlined examples to try and support a theory that Mac is a practiced deceiver.

Therefore, the weight of probabilities is that he knew they were not realted and decied to link them in a way which he belived served his purposes at that moment.

I postulate that the Cutbush conundrum dovetails well with a Macnaghten attempting to lock in support from the Liberal govt, whilst also hiding that Druitt was a too late suspect [as was Kosminski]. He hypes the poetential trouble the Cuybush saga might cause whilst completely downplaying Druitt as a major suspect. Simon is quite right to argue -- if I understand him correctly -- that in that document, of official record, Druitt is a minor suspect, just better than the madman being exploited in a nuthouse, who was also a retired cop's relative. He hypes one, quite decetifully, whilst downplaying the other, also I think deceitfully.

[Debra A]

It's interesting that in the case of Edwin Colicott in 1891, an uncle happens to be mentioned:

Originally found by Chris Scott
The Times
21 MARCH 1891
After a consultation between counsel, Mr. Somes bound the prisoner over to
come up for judgement when called upon. He accepted the father's and uncle's sureties each in Ł100.

The details of Colicott and Cutbush were mixed up a few times in the press because the nature of their crimes was similar, their adresses were similar, they were of a similar age. Perhaps Macnaghten somehow did too on the uncle thing? Just a thought anyway, I realise this would still rely on Macnaghten using the coincidence of the surnames.

[Roy Corduroy]

The Bermuda Triangle

Yes Debs, that's a thought. Mac picked up widow, why not uncle.

But the daddy thing -

The two families lived fairly close...If it's true, then Thomas Hayne was illegitimate, born of an adulterous affair between his mother and a high-ranking Scotland Yard officer.

That was later when they were neighbors. Not 1864 the year of conception. You are bending the time-space continuoum Mr Simon Serling.

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

An aunt was mentioned in Lloyds Weekly News, 19th April 1891—

"A Lloyd's reporter had an interview last evening with Miss Haines [Hayne], the aunt of Cutbush, who made the following statement—"My nephew was taken ill about two years ago . . . " She then related a story about THC's strange behaviour and nocturnal perambulations, concluding, "My nephew is only 25, and not 27, as stated in the papers. We had a number of witnesses, and we could have proved everything that I have told you."

This would most probably have been Kate Cutbush's sister, E. Hayne [b.1844, Witney, Oxford], living with Kate and THC at 14 Albert Street, Newington, Surrey [see 1881 Census]. She was unmarried in 1881, and in the interview is referred to as "Miss", suggesting that in 1891 there was still no husband who would have been THC's uncle.

The interview can't have been with Amelia Hayne [Kate and E's mother, living at the same address] as she would have been "Mrs" and have referred to THC as her grandson.

It's interesting that throughout the 1891 interview there is no mention of Kate Cutbush [nee Hayne], THC's mother.

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

Yes Debs, that's a thought. Mac picked up widow, why not uncle.

But the daddy thing -



That was later when they were neighbors. Not 1864 the year of conception. You are bending the time-space continuoum Mr Simon Serling.

Roy

Hi Roy, Simon
Dr. Gilbert speaking to Lloyd's in 1891 seems to have been the source that Kate Cutbush, Thomas's mother was a widow (this is the only time I think she is mentioned Simon). I noticed that in some accounts Dr Gilbert is also said to have examined Collicott in Holloway to establish his mental condition, the same as he was said to have done with Cutbush, I wonder if he could be the source of some further confusion of the two cases...a sort of mix and match of details?

Regarding Thomas Cutbush's Aunt, as far as I know she was named Clara Hayne? Also I think Kate and Clara's mother was named Ann Hayne, Amelia is Charles's mother....complicated innit! Anyhow, I believe it was Clara who gave the interview to Lloyd's.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

You've drawn a conclusion I didn't make, but we'll let it pass.

THC was born in 1865, two years before CHC joined the Metropolitan Police.

If CHC was THC's father [and I have always stressed the if], then in 1891, the year of THC's offence, the story of an illegitimate child from an earlier adulterous affair would have destroyed his professional career, especially as said child was now up on charges of stabbing women and in some quarters thought to be the Whitechapel murderer. You can almost see the headlines—"Scotland Yard Detective Father of Jack the Ripper". CHC retired quietly in August 1891, just a few months after the THC case, at the age of 47. There wasn't a sniff of scandal at the time, but I wouldn't mind betting on the possibility that by 1894 the Sun newspaper had done some digging and made a connection with the name Cutbush.

Do do do do, do do do do,

Simon [Rod] Wood

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Mea culpa. You're absolutely right. I got my Cutbush families mixed up. Kate's mother was Anne, not Amelia.

The only suitable candidates I can find between 1837 and 1875 for "Clara" are Clara Eliza Hayne, born St Pancras, September 1860, or Clara Edith Hayne, born Southwark, June 1871, at which respective dates her mother, Anne Hayne, would have been 55 and 66. And who is this "E. Hayne, daughter" in the 1881 Census, born 1844, Witney, Oxford, of whom I can find no further trace?

Do you think there's any mileage in Kate Hayne having been born in New York?

I'm starting to get all Cutbushed out.

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

Hi Simon, E. Hayne is Clara. I think the 'E' may be a 'C'
Clara appears in the 1851 census with the Hayne family and the birth year and place details match up with the 1881 entry.
There is one census entry(1871?) that shows Clara and Kate to be China and glassware dealers, which ties in with a report found many years ago by Robert Linford about a robbery at their shop(?) If I remember rightly.

Kate's place of birth was New Yorkshire wasn't it? The US place of birth is given consistently anyway, I know Robert also looked into but I'm not sure how far he got with it.

[Robert]

Hi Debs and all

I think the shop attack story was originally found by Chris Scott.

I have Clara and Kate's wills somewhere...also I think I transcribed them on the old boards. Hang on because I have to nip out for my fags and then cook my sausages, but I'll try to find them.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Thank you. Clara it is. But where is "New Yorkshire"?

Regards,

Simon