Cutbush and Cutbush?

[rjpalmer]

Walter Andrews' record showed that he had scars on his legs too. Marks from thrombosis surgery. It wasn't an easy job, being in the Met.

[Natalie Severn]

Robert and Debs,
Yes ,the entry gives the following information about these wounds:

where it is written,-"if injured": a tick is placed --- but no other comment though other policemen in the file who have scars or injuries do usually have a comment of some kind alongside the tick-where it happened etc.

Just the following description is entered:

knifewounds right thigh

[Debra A]

Hi Robert,
Thanks for posting that link.
btw, was it CHC's left or right thigh that had the knife scars? I've looked at some old posts on this and one researcher said it was the left, another the right. Or was it both?

[Robert]

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/14708.html

My post Jan 6th 2005 gives Kate and Clara's wills.

Nats, it was only one or two scars, wasn't it?

[Natalie Severn]

Simon,
Yes,perhaps.
Its a bit freakish when you see it in this otherwise very formal file, chock full of straightforward entries about a policeman"s height, colour of eyes, length of service, awards etc. Its strange being suddenly hit by the mention of a pair of thighs covered in scars from old knife wounds.
Cheers Simon,
Norma

[Simon Wood]

Hi Norma,

Like father like son?

It's not exactly the sort of thing you catch like the flu.

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm starting to get all Cutbushed out.

That's what happens when you get too much THC in your system.

Hang on because I have to nip out for my fags and then cook my sausages

See, Linford's already got the munchies.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Roy,

You've drawn a conclusion I didn't make, but we'll let it pass.

THC was born in 1865, two years before CHC joined the Metropolitan Police.

If CHC was THC's father [and I have always stressed the if], then in 1891, the year of THC's offence, the story of an illegitimate child from an earlier adulterous affair would have destroyed his professional career, especially as said child was now up on charges of stabbing women and in some quarters thought to be the Whitechapel murderer. You can almost see the headlines—"Scotland Yard Detective Father of Jack the Ripper". CHC retired quietly in August 1891, just a few months after the THC case, at the age of 47. There wasn't a sniff of scandal at the time, but I wouldn't mind betting on the possibility that by 1894 the Sun newspaper had done some digging and made a connection with the name Cutbush.

Do do do do, do do do do,

Simon [Rod] Wood

It may be worth remembering that Annie Millwood was stabbed in the lower abdomen and thighs in February 1888 when she was living at 8 Whites Row Whitechapel.
At Kew in the MEPO files it states that Supt Charles Cutbush has "stab wounds on his thighs"-origin unknown.
I always thought it a bit strange since Thomas very clearly had a predilection for stabbing bottoms and thighs which was why he was sent to Broadmoor.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Thank you. Clara it is. But where is "New Yorkshire"?

Regards,

Simon

[Robert]

Hi Debs and all

I think the shop attack story was originally found by Chris Scott.

I have Clara and Kate's wills somewhere...also I think I transcribed them on the old boards. Hang on because I have to nip out for my fags and then cook my sausages, but I'll try to find them.

[Debra A]

Hi Simon, E. Hayne is Clara. I think the 'E' may be a 'C'
Clara appears in the 1851 census with the Hayne family and the birth year and place details match up with the 1881 entry.
There is one census entry(1871?) that shows Clara and Kate to be China and glassware dealers, which ties in with a report found many years ago by Robert Linford about a robbery at their shop(?) If I remember rightly.

Kate's place of birth was New Yorkshire wasn't it? The US place of birth is given consistently anyway, I know Robert also looked into but I'm not sure how far he got with it.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Mea culpa. You're absolutely right. I got my Cutbush families mixed up. Kate's mother was Anne, not Amelia.

The only suitable candidates I can find between 1837 and 1875 for "Clara" are Clara Eliza Hayne, born St Pancras, September 1860, or Clara Edith Hayne, born Southwark, June 1871, at which respective dates her mother, Anne Hayne, would have been 55 and 66. And who is this "E. Hayne, daughter" in the 1881 Census, born 1844, Witney, Oxford, of whom I can find no further trace?

Do you think there's any mileage in Kate Hayne having been born in New York?

I'm starting to get all Cutbushed out.

Regards,

Simon

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

You've drawn a conclusion I didn't make, but we'll let it pass.

THC was born in 1865, two years before CHC joined the Metropolitan Police.

If CHC was THC's father [and I have always stressed the if], then in 1891, the year of THC's offence, the story of an illegitimate child from an earlier adulterous affair would have destroyed his professional career, especially as said child was now up on charges of stabbing women and in some quarters thought to be the Whitechapel murderer. You can almost see the headlines—"Scotland Yard Detective Father of Jack the Ripper". CHC retired quietly in August 1891, just a few months after the THC case, at the age of 47. There wasn't a sniff of scandal at the time, but I wouldn't mind betting on the possibility that by 1894 the Sun newspaper had done some digging and made a connection with the name Cutbush.

Do do do do, do do do do,

Simon [Rod] Wood

[Debra A]

Yes Debs, that's a thought. Mac picked up widow, why not uncle.

But the daddy thing -



That was later when they were neighbors. Not 1864 the year of conception. You are bending the time-space continuoum Mr Simon Serling.

Roy

Hi Roy, Simon
Dr. Gilbert speaking to Lloyd's in 1891 seems to have been the source that Kate Cutbush, Thomas's mother was a widow (this is the only time I think she is mentioned Simon). I noticed that in some accounts Dr Gilbert is also said to have examined Collicott in Holloway to establish his mental condition, the same as he was said to have done with Cutbush, I wonder if he could be the source of some further confusion of the two cases...a sort of mix and match of details?

Regarding Thomas Cutbush's Aunt, as far as I know she was named Clara Hayne? Also I think Kate and Clara's mother was named Ann Hayne, Amelia is Charles's mother....complicated innit! Anyhow, I believe it was Clara who gave the interview to Lloyd's.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

An aunt was mentioned in Lloyds Weekly News, 19th April 1891—

"A Lloyd's reporter had an interview last evening with Miss Haines [Hayne], the aunt of Cutbush, who made the following statement—"My nephew was taken ill about two years ago . . . " She then related a story about THC's strange behaviour and nocturnal perambulations, concluding, "My nephew is only 25, and not 27, as stated in the papers. We had a number of witnesses, and we could have proved everything that I have told you."

This would most probably have been Kate Cutbush's sister, E. Hayne [b.1844, Witney, Oxford], living with Kate and THC at 14 Albert Street, Newington, Surrey [see 1881 Census]. She was unmarried in 1881, and in the interview is referred to as "Miss", suggesting that in 1891 there was still no husband who would have been THC's uncle.

The interview can't have been with Amelia Hayne [Kate and E's mother, living at the same address] as she would have been "Mrs" and have referred to THC as her grandson.

It's interesting that throughout the 1891 interview there is no mention of Kate Cutbush [nee Hayne], THC's mother.

Regards,

Simon