Questioning PC Harveys testimony.

[Ben]

What disturbs me greatly is the fact that those attempting, with utter futility, to claim that the man Lawende saw wasn't Eddowes' killer are the same people who usually insist on making crass comparisons between "Mr. Astrakhan" and some implausible favourite suspect of theirs. They claim, on the one hand, that Jack the Ripper was some kind of invisible silly phantom who was never seen, but then as soon as it's Mr. Astrakhan it's "Ooh, he was well-dressed just like Druitt!" It piddles me off, and it's absurdly easy to see through.

The only reason people reject Lawende's sighting is because it doesn't gel together very well with the various "toff" suspects that get bandied around. There's absolutely no other justification for ignoring the far more likely scenario that Lawende and company observed Kate with her killer, other than an irrational aversion to rough and shabby local unglamorous rippers. As I've mentioned before, the chances of the killer never being seen in the company of his victims in so dense and nocturnal a population as the one we're dealing with are effectively zero. Lawende didn't merely state that the clothes were "similar" or "black". He believed that they were the same, and positive IDs have been established on much less. It certainly seems as though the police placed credence in it.

The man Lawende saw was allowing his face to be seen while his chest was being stroked.That wasnt the Ripper!

Sorry, Nats, but how on earth can you know that? We don't know who the ripper was because his identity was never established. How do we know that he wasn't seen at all or most crime scenes?

[Monty]

Nats,

She was penniless, how do you think she was going do get the money to buy drink at that time?

And, like skinning a cat, theres more than one way to service a punter. My point is that there are many things Kate could have been doing in those 35 mins. Not all mysterious.

Cheers

Monty

[Natalie Severn]

Monty,
Dont get me wrong-I am not meaning that Kate didnt solicit-and yes,I completely agree, ofcourse,the money for booze came from her clients.So that night she may have done what she needed to to pay for her fix with the drink.I still think its important to consider how she may have gotten hold of all that booze that day.Did she get it from some dive she knew of near Aldgate,and was it possibly bought for her in exchange for favours of one kind and another in that place she knew?And importantly was that where she was headed back to that night?
Best
Nats

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
I think what might be disturbing you also is the thought that this ripper you have down as poor old Hutch- might not have been Hutch!

Anyway,I believe you underestimate the Ripper-whoever he was.He was careful not to get caught -unlike Dr Cream or Dr Crippen or a number of other serial murderers and murderers that get wheeled on .
That ,in my view should form part of the investigation and assessment.How and why he avoided capture.What sort of man was he, who could kill again and again in a few short weeks.......and not only evade capture but leave the entirety of the police force-Met and City-either disagreeing with each other about who he was-as with Macnaghten and Anderson or completely baffled like Abberline,Dew,Henry Smith,etc
Best
Natalie

[Simon Wood]

Hi Natalie,

Here's a clue.

Add the Aldgate incident to her spell in Bishopsgate police station.

One begets the other.

Regards,

Simon

[Ben]

Hi Nats,

Of course he went to efforts to avoid capture, but he wasn't invisible, and couldn't help being seen on occasions. Lawende is generally regarded as the witness most likely to have seen the killer, and for good reason. JTR may have evaded capture, but he was no brilliantly evil genius.

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

Hi Nats,

Of course he went to efforts to avoid capture, but he wasn't invisible, and couldn't help being seen on occasions. Lawende is generally regarded as the witness most likely to have seen the killer, and for good reason. JTR may have evaded capture, but he was no brilliantly evil genius.

Best regards,
Ben

Nor should we assume he was the worlds luckiest killer either Ben. The getways were obviously flawless, because as you said, the best likely view of him was pre-kill.

Cheers Mate

[Natalie Severn]

Good witness or not good witness---he did not see Kate"s face and he said he would not know the man again if he saw him.Another thing seems certain neither did PC Harvey or PC Watkins....or any one of the eight or so Police around Mitre square/Aldgate .Another thing ----PC Harvey didnt see Lawende or the other two men either standing where they say they stood, arriving or departing that scene in Duke"s Place where he was on duty that night.
Best
Natalie

[perrymason]

I think there is some circumstantial evidence that convinced many cops that she had a pre-arranged meeting, the Achilles heel being the inability to forecast when she would be released, if incarcerated.

A pre-arranged meeting doesnt have to be time specific though...for eample, it could be her drinking partner that afternoon saying "Later come look for Charlie, he wears this...., and he hangs around Mitre most nights, he'll know how to get to me"

If he doesnt get to you first.

Cheers.

[Natalie Severn]

Simon,
I am slightly lost -will return to it tomorrow when I am not tired
Night
Natalie

[Ben]

Absolutely, Mike, although I believe luck played a significant role.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Another thing ----PC Harvey didnt see Lawende or the other two men either standing where they say they stood, arriving or departing that scene in Duke"s Place where he was on duty that night.
Best
Natalie

The simple explanation may simply be that the three men as well as Eddowes and the sailor were in the area during those fifteen minutes (or however long the time frame was between the beats) that occured between Harvey's beats and when it wasn't patroled.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

Anyway,as Monty says,it appears not to have been raining all that much when she was let out.

Hi Nats,

There certainly seems to have been a reasonably grotty shower that stopped sometime before 01:30. According to Lawende, as reported in the Telegraph: "It was raining, and we sat in the club till half-past one o'clock, when we left." In more than one newspaper account, it is made all the more explicit that this shower prevented them from leaving the club until that time: "It was raining, and we could not leave the premises."

[Monty]

Gareth,

Grotty? define grotty.

It certainly was raining, but how heavy? Believe me, it would have to be bone dry to get me out of a club.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Gareth,

Grotty? define grotty.

It certainly was raining, but how heavy? Believe me, it would have to be bone dry to get me out of a club.

You, Monty? Surely not! Now I'm shocked

Seriously, Lawende and his mates waited in the club and chatted whilst it was raining - it doesn't appear that they weren't there for "afters". I get the impression that the rain was "grotty" enough for them to think: "Sod that for a game of soldiers, we'll stay and have a natter until it stops. At least it's warm and dry in 'ere..."