Did he always believe Chapman was the ripper?

[DVV]

Hi Steven, if so, there is even more humour in his 1903 interviews.

[Steven Russell]

Could "I see you've got JtR at last" have been a bit of dry humour on Abbers' part?

Best wishes,
Steve.

[ChrisGeorge]

Chris I am wondering if you can shine any light on this?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6337

Is Norma still active on here?

Helena

Honestly I believe Norma's statement, "Given Chapman’s record of ruthless and criminal behaviour" is based on what we know of his poisonings not on any other behavior we know he got up to. Plus the story about the man going round asking at medical schools for specimens of uteri turned out not to be quite the way coroner Wynne Baxter characterized it, so there's room to doubt that Chapman took advantage of that situation.

[HelenaWojtczak]

Godley's silence speaks volume, as they used to say.

Cheers

That is indeed a very good point.

[DVV]

I was wondering if you thought Godley believed it.
Helena

Had Godley shared Abberline's opinion, the less he could do was to support his colleague, whose theory was publicly attacked, if not mocked, which compelled Abberline to theorize further in a second interview.
Godley's silence speaks volume, as they used to say.

Cheers

[HelenaWojtczak]

No, Abberline only. Although he was the one that arrested Chapman, Godley did not theorize Chapman-the-Ripper in the press, as Abberline did.
It's quite telling, don't you think ?

Now I'm not a Godley specialist and may have missed something, but I've never read that Godley believed JtR had committed murders in America, nor that JtR possessed great anatomical knowledge, two points that are essential in Abberline reasoning.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was wondering if you thought Godley believed it.

As I said upthread in message 22, I can find no evidence that Godley believed that Chapman was the ripper, yet Gosling and others maintain that he did believe it.

It could have been started by Adam, who reported that, on Chapman’s arrest in October 1902, former Detective Chief Inspector Abberline said to Inspector Godley: ‘You’ve got Jack the Ripper at last!’ Although this is untrue, it may well have originated from Godley himself.

In his preface, Adam thanks Godley ‘for much information’, lending credence to the story, as it appears to be from the horse’s mouth. However, that particular bit, the "You've got Jack" bit, may not have come from Godley's mouth, or maybe it did but he disagreed with Abberline.

Helena

[DVV]

Except Abberline and Godley, you mean?

Helena

No, Abberline only. Although he was the one that arrested Chapman, Godley did not theorize Chapman-the-Ripper in the press, as Abberline did.
It's quite telling, don't you think ?

Now I'm not a Godley specialist and may have missed something, but I've never read that Godley believed JtR had committed murders in America, nor that JtR possessed great anatomical knowledge, two points that are essential in Abberline reasoning.

[HelenaWojtczak]

Chris I am wondering if you can shine any light on this?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6337

Is Norma still active on here?

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

Yes I agree with you Chris. Plus I would add that, had Chapman moved to another town after his second murder, and not kept any paperwork related to his previous victims, the third would probably not have been detected.

He could have carried on like that for decades provided he moved town after each killing.

I'm still wondering about Godley... I can't find any direct evidence that he thought Chapman was JtR. I find only other people attributing that belief to him. The strongest is of course H.L. Adam, who thanked Godley in his intro. But my researches have shown that Adam's book is littered with errors.... hmmm...

Helena

[Steven Russell]

Oops! Thanks for pointing that out, Wickers. Of course I meant 1892.

[Wickerman]

The trouble with this is that Abberline did not retire until 1992,.....

My goodness, his pension must have been a small fortune!!!!

[Steven Russell]

... and he was only 23? in 1888, just like Kosminski.
Too young!

And he was a pole, just like Kosminski, and a barber, just like Kosminski.

As some of you may remember, I have postulated that Abberline's suspicion of Chapman may have been bolstered by hazy recollections of a 23 year-old Polish barber suspect called K-------i.

The trouble with this is that Abberline did not retire until 1992, the year after Aaron was finally put away. It's inconceivable that Abberline would not have known this if Aaron was considered a valid suspect in and before '91. I suppose it's just possible that Abbers conveniently forgot about Aaron's incarceration or that only a vague subconscious bell was rung by Klosowski's surname, age, nationality, and profession.

Hmm...

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Wickerman]

crap, i'll leave BEN to answer this, i'm not going to go all over that lot yet again, you should post your views on the right thread, this is a Chapman thread

Well quit going on about George Hutchinson being Jack the Ripper. Chapman's candidacy has been regurgitated ad-nauseum over the years. Nothing has changed, and he was only 23? in 1888, just like Kosminski.
Too young!

[Malcolm X]

Malcolm, if GH was JtR, he would not have gone to the police in the first place. No amount of ducking and weaving will ever change that.

Regards, Jon S.

crap, i'll leave BEN to answer this, i'm not going to go all over that lot yet again, you should post your views on the right thread, this is a Chapman thread

[Malcolm X]

yes i must admit as i've mentioned, switching to a poisoner is very hard to imagine from someone as bad as JTR.... OBVIOUSLY

this has always been a problem, it's harder to understand from others, than it is from me, but even i'm not that convinced.

but his suspicion is tremendous, it really is and this tends to sway me back the other way, but it's not really the poisoning that screws him up it's:-

1....Lawende describes a Joe Average Sailor boy...fair in complexion
2....nobody like Chapman was seen near Stride
3....LA DE DA is simply rubbish
4....a doctor/ medical person/ ex surgeon will be more likely a poisoner.
5....he's not enough like W.Bury.

not enough like W.Bury, but then again this bloke is too bloody stupid to be JTR as well, but you know what i mean, JTR wouldn't be stupid enough to butcher and murder his wives and leave them at home, down in the basement, until he's ready to dump their bodies, with maybe relatives and friends asking him where they've gone and the body downstairs starting to stink like crazy.... he'd kill his wives another way wouldn't he, oh damn it, just like Chapman

sorry, Chapman could still be JTR....because to kill his wives requires a totally different M.O, because if you live in a busy city, it's very hard to hide the body and identity of the victim, a torso is also hard to dump without being seen, because this will take at least two trips.

a mother will say ``where has my daughter gone ?`` and relatives this close rarely vanish without saying anything, especially if this is the 2nd or 3rd wife that's vanished, after all, this is exactly where Hague went wrong, friends and family started suspecting him.... but with Chapman it could have been even worst, because relatives might have hated him already! simply because they knew that he was an evil wife beating bastard... i think, not sure!

so you can see, that to kill your wife in your alter ego as JTR is very foolish indeed, you need to think this through to avoid suspicion and of course finally detection.

he chose to poison, yes very foolish but it's not as bad as W.Bury, G.Chapman was arrogant and thought he was above the law and too clever to be caught.

he kept on killing, the mark of a serial killer, which is far more than you can say of any other top suspect here..... Chapman is a proven evil bastard, exactly the same qualities required to be JTR, switching to a poisoner to escape detection ? well yes, i know exactly what you're thinking, but all i'm saying is that it can be possible, and if i'm thinking this, then maybe G.Chapman thought the same too..................... maybe!