Leaving one's beat

[Joshua Rogan]

I recall someone can't remember who responded to a post from David a few years back saying church street or road (memory fails me) was an older name for Eastern end of Hanbury street so Church Row could be a corruption of that or maybe a term for a road off of it.

Hmm, now you mention it, that does ring a bell. Will have to have a hunt for it.

I looked for Campbell street but so far no luck.

I tend to think this was a simple mishearing of Hanbury Street. I could be wrong though.

[Robert St Devil]

I think there's little doubt that PC Mizen was being somewhat economical with the truth. The question is: why?

Hi John. I believe it may have had something to do with PC Mizen not having any identification for the two men coming from the murder site other than they looked like carmen. Even if Cross had said "dead", that could mean several things - woman suffered a heart attack, old age, &c. The idea of murder may not have entered into PC Mizen's mind. And, possibly, his intention was to walk down Baker's Row to a point of observation where he could signal PC Neal and alert him to what the men told him. It's just that "dead" turned out to be "murdered" in this case, and one would expect that the police would want to know who those men are; information PC Mizen could not provide. I just wonder why the press ran with the High Ripper theory rather than POLICE ON THE SEARCH FOR TWO CARMEN

[John G]

Considering both Cross and Paul were late for work- and therefore no doubt anxious to be on their way- as well as the fact that they'd had an unsettling experience, is it possible that PC Mizen was given a garbled account of what had happened, that genuinely confused him?

[Elamarna]

I tend to think this was a simple mishearing of Hanbury Street. I could be wrong though.

No I think you are probably right. I have spent a month searching and can find nothing.
In which case the 2nd house from the end seems a good bet.

Incidently it's where I did my timings to in part 1. Was only possibility I could see.

Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

Steve? Good point about PC Pennett. It does, however, seem a strange policy. I mean, how could the officer know whether he was simply being tricked, particularly as this ruse had been used in the past?

Oops! Apologies for the mix-up, I should get my eyes tested.

Maybe Pennett's "tell him I have a job on" was some sort of code to let the other pc know it was a legitimate request for help?

[Elamarna]

Hi John. I believe it may have had something to do with PC Mizen not having any identification for the two men coming from the murder site other than they looked like carmen. Even if Cross had said "dead", that could mean several things - woman suffered a heart attack, old age, &c. The idea of murder may not have entered into PC Mizen's mind. And, possibly, his intention was to walk down Baker's Row to a point of observation where he could signal PC Neal and alert him to what the men told him. It's just that "dead" turned out to be "murdered" in this case, and one would expect that the police would want to know who those men are; information PC Mizen could not provide. I just wonder why the press ran with the High Ripper theory rather than POLICE ON THE SEARCH FOR TWO CARMEN

Hi Robert,

Maybe because Mizen said nothimy til the Monday inquest, Neil certainly did not know of the meeting on Sunday.
By Monday Paul and Lechmere had come forward. Lechmere to the inquest and Paul to the press.
No search required.

Steve

[John G]

Hi John. I believe it may have had something to do with PC Mizen not having any identification for the two men coming from the murder site other than they looked like carmen. Even if Cross had said "dead", that could mean several things - woman suffered a heart attack, old age, &c. The idea of murder may not have entered into PC Mizen's mind. And, possibly, his intention was to walk down Baker's Row to a point of observation where he could signal PC Neal and alert him to what the men told him. It's just that "dead" turned out to be "murdered" in this case, and one would expect that the police would want to know who those men are; information PC Mizen could not provide. I just wonder why the press ran with the High Ripper theory rather than POLICE ON THE SEARCH FOR TWO CARMEN

Hi Robert,

But if he wasn't being completely honest, why come up with a story about being wanted by another officer? I mean, in these circumstances he must have realized the men would contradict him. Why not simply say he was given a garbled account which he decided to investigate? Or say that he was informed that a woman was lying down, possibly dead or seriously injured, so he decided the situation merited an immediate response?

[drstrange169]

>>And why would he trust such a story?<<

Particularly if such story was told by two men with no sense of urgency or with any specific reasoning, as Mizen claimed they did. And why didn't Mizen ask any questions? It's all quite strange.

[drstrange169]

> PC Pennett did send a passing civilian to fetch another PC<<

But I bet it was done with urgency and with a very specific message.

[drstrange169]

>>I can be argued Neil did not blow his whistle has he knew there was a policeman end of street...<<

Without checking, I seem to remember there were specific police guide lines about blowing whistles in residential areas. Where's Monty when you need him?

[drstrange169]

Nothing else to add, I just noticed I was on 899 posts and wanted to get to 900;-)

[Robert St Devil]

that's where i'm stuck john and steve. if cross and paul hadn't come forward, would pc mizen still have been called before the inquest?

his moment on the stand is a blurb thats mostly about confirming and contradicting paul's story as evidenced by his denial of continuing to knock up (this stated even before cross or paul is called before the inquest jury!) remove the carmen aspect from his statement and what are you left with... nothing because he provides little to nothing.

it starting to seem like there was an aspect of spin control going on in line with reputation, not conspiracy. its not a heavy fault tho. on aug 30th jack the ripper does not exist in Whitechapel. there was no way for pc mizen to know that his conversation with cross and paul would lead him to the mutilated corpse of Polly Nichols. its only after the severity of the crime is discovered that everyone's actions become accountable.

[harry]

A possibility is that Mizen did not take Cross and Paul seriously,and had no intention of doing anything in relation to what was said,or of asking questions and taking names.However,to be absolutely sure,after finishing knocking up,he made a quick trip to the junction of Bucks Row,and seeing activity there,joined in.The question then was,how to explain his presence,his absence from his beat,and his failure to question Cross/Paul,and the simplest explanation w as to claim that the two Carmen had simply told him he was wanted by an officer in Bucks Row,or words to that effect,not that a woman might be dead.

[Robert St Devil]

i think the answer could be in that ballpark harry.

consider cross and paul's reaction if, in fact, they had been sent by pc neil. he's just shined his bulls eye lantern on her corpse so now cross and paul know for damned sure this woman has been murdered. do they rush to raise the alert? do they press the severity of the crime onto pc mizen? would they walk their way to work, happening to mention to the first constable they see that a constable needs to see him in bucks row but failing to mention the part about a womans throat being slashed?

[John G]

But surely even on the basis of being told there was another constable who wanted to speak to him he would have been expected to take place their names. I mean, what if he gets to Bucks Row and PC Neil says, "Don't know what you're talking about mate, I think you might have Bern had. I suppose you got their names though." " Ah, well, now you mention it..."

Of course, if they were up to no good they're not likely to give their real names anyway. Maybe Cross would have told him he was called Lechmere! But in that case, why make up the story about being told he was wanted by another officer? Why not just tell the truth?