Leaving one's beat

[John G]

Hi John G,

Plenty.

The whole thing is one great swirling whirlpool of lies.

Regards,

Simon

Hullo Simon,

That's a bit of a generalization to say the least.

What lies? Why do the lies infer a conspiracy? How are the lies connected?

You know I'm tempted at this point to paraphrase the great Samuel Johnson by saying: Conspiracy theory. The last refuge of the hopelessly confused.

[John G]

You think Emma Green, Walter Purkis, Patrick Mulshaw and Henry Tomkins all lied at the inquest?

Now Patrick Mulshaw's an interesting character. He admitted to dozing off throughout the night but not, of course, during the important time frame of 3:00 to 4:00 am. Perish the thought. That said, it wasn't apparently until twenty to five before he became aware of what at happened, despite his erstwhile fanatical devotion to his duties!

[drstrange169]

>>... can we be sure no one was living on these premise.<<

Alas, we can't be sure of anything, but won't stop us speculating;-)

[drstrange169]

>> ... the carmen would not have been able to see Mizen ..<<

That's something I hadn't consider before, good thinking, Frank.

[FrankO]

But surely if he was told that another officer wanted him then, by necessary implication, he has to assume it's an emergency, i.e. on the basis that the other officer must have known that he could only summon his assistance in an emergency situation.

This, I feel, is an important point, John.

If the other officer could only call him away in case of an emergency, then why wouldn’t this other officer clearly pass on the emergency? Because, as you suggest, the other officer must have known he could only summon Mizen’s assistance in an emergency situation. Why would he want to run the risk that Mizen wouldn’t come as a result of not having clearly passed on what the emergency was? And how could this have made sense to Mizen?

[FrankO]

That's something I hadn't consider before, good thinking, Frank.

Thanks, Dusty.

Also, according to Mizen’s statement he was in the act of knocking up when the carmen approached and addressed him, almost in passing by. To me that means that he had to be somewhere where there were houses and this, therefore, couldn’t have been in the blue marked area on the picture I posted yesterday.

[Elamarna]

Thanks, Dusty.

Also, according to Mizen’s statement he was in the act of knocking up when the carmen approached and addressed him, almost in passing by. To me that means that he had to be somewhere where there were houses and this, therefore, couldn’t have been in the blue marked area on the picture I posted yesterday.

However Frank, Mizen's testimony is not exactly in line with the Carmen and we must surely be careful in taking eithersides views as gospel.
He says Hanbury street, the Carmen say nearer the entrance of old Montague when they see him.
Maybe he is knocking up the pub. But more probable he is about to do the house next to the Northern corner of Hanbury.

I think we can assume he is within a short distance of the junction but that is about it I feel.

Steve

[FrankO]

He says Hanbury street, the Carmen say nearer the entrance of old Montague when they see him.

I feel Mizen would be better acquainted with the street names and layout of the streets, plus, while working and performing a specific chore, I'd expect him to know better where he was precisely when they met, which is why I give him a little more credit when it comes to the location of the meeting, Steve.

Maybe he is knocking up the pub. But more probable he is about to do the house next to the Northern corner of Hanbury.

I agree that it was a house near the end of Hanbury Street, so that one sounds good to me, as well.

I think we can assume he is within a short distance of the junction but that is about it I feel.

Agreed again, Steve.

All the best,
Frank

[Elamarna]

I feel Mizen would be better acquainted with the street names and layout of the streets, plus, while working and performing a specific chore, I'd expect him to know better where he was precisely when they met, which is why I give him a little more credit when it comes to the location of the meeting, Steve.
I agree that it was a house near the end of Hanbury Street, so that one sounds good to me, as well.
Agreed again, Steve.

All the best,
Frank

Playing devils advocate surely where he says he is depends on any motive he may or may not have.

And it seems all used different names anyway for roads. Paul refers to Church Row, while
In one report of Mizen it says " at end of Campbell Street".
If the Carmen were on the Eastern side of Bakers Row until just before the junction they would be able to see both versions. Mizen coming out of old Montague or him at the second house in Hanbury.
Indeed they could have seen him coming out of Montague AND going to the house. He may not see them until they reach him. All options covered.

It's fascinating is it not Frank, so many possabilties.


Cheers

Steve

[John G]

This, I feel, is an important point, John.

If the other officer could only call him away in case of an emergency, then why wouldn’t this other officer clearly pass on the emergency? Because, as you suggest, the other officer must have known he could only summon Mizen’s assistance in an emergency situation. Why would he want to run the risk that Mizen wouldn’t come as a result of not having clearly passed on what the emergency was? And how could this have made sense to Mizen?

Hi Frank,

Yes, I agree. It doesn't make sense that another officer would send two civilians to pass on a message a colleague on an adjacent beat, particularly as all he had to do was blow his whistle. And why would he trust such a story?

I think there's little doubt that PC Mizen was being somewhat economical with the truth. The question is: why?

[Joshua Rogan]

And it seems all used different names anyway for roads. Paul refers to Church Row

I noticed that too....do you think this was a mistake or misreporting, or was this an alternative or earlier name for Baker's Row? What are the chances that Mizen was knocking up Elizabeth Long?

[Elamarna]

I noticed that too....do you think this was a mistake or misreporting, or was this an alternative or earlier name for Baker's Row? What are the chances that Mizen was knocking up Elizabeth Long?

Joshua

I recall someone can't remember who responded to a post from David a few years back saying church street or road (memory fails me) was an older name for Eastern end of Hanbury street so Church Row could be a corruption of that or maybe a term for a road off of it.

I looked for Campbell street but so far no luck.

Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

It doesn't make sense that another officer would send two civilians to pass on a message a colleague on an adjacent beat, particularly as all he had to do was blow his whistle.

I'm not sure about that, Steve. Neil didn't use a whistle to attract Thain, but signalled (silently) with his lamp. And PC Pennett did send a passing civilian to fetch another PC, rather than blow his whistle, on finding the Pinchin St torso (incidentally, did that other PC note the name of the man sent to get him?). Not to mention PC Watkins sending civilian Morris to find policemen. Although as it happened, Morris was an ex PC and had his own whistle.

[Elamarna]

I'm not sure about that, Steve. Neil didn't use a whistle to attract Thain, but signalled (silently) with his lamp. And PC Pennett did send a passing civilian to fetch another PC, rather than blow his whistle, on finding the Pinchin St torso (incidentally, did that other PC note the name of the man sent to get him?). Not to mention PC Watkins sending civilian Morris to find policemen. Although as it happened, Morris was an ex PC and had his own whistle.

John not me Joshua.
However I am sitting on the fence on this one. I can be argued Neil did not blow his whistle has he knew there was a policeman end of street and signalled by lamp. How he would have reacted if he had not heard Thain and seen Mizen we cannot say. He may have blown a whistle. I am undecided

Steve

[John G]

I'm not sure about that, Steve. Neil didn't use a whistle to attract Thain, but signalled (silently) with his lamp. And PC Pennett did send a passing civilian to fetch another PC, rather than blow his whistle, on finding the Pinchin St torso (incidentally, did that other PC note the name of the man sent to get him?). Not to mention PC Watkins sending civilian Morris to find policemen. Although as it happened, Morris was an ex PC and had his own whistle.

Steve? Good point about PC Pennett. It does, however, seem a strange policy. I mean, how could the officer know whether he was simply being tricked, particularly as this ruse had been used in the past?