PC Amos Simpson

[Caligo Umbrator]

Morning guys,

https://www.aquamodesta.com

Image number 5.

Amanda

Hi, Amanda.
I went to the website you linked to but wasn't able to find Image No. 5.
It looks like a swimwear site.
I know you said on another thread you had an interesting idea about the shawl so I'm thinking this is something about that.
Any chance you might be able to prove another link?
Thanks, Caligo.

[Amanda]

Scroll down

Hi, Amanda.
I went to the website you linked to but wasn't able to find Image No. 5.
It looks like a swimwear site.
I know you said on another thread you had an interesting idea about the shawl so I'm thinking this is something about that.
Any chance you might be able to prove another link?
Thanks, Caligo.

Hi C.U,

It is a Jewish swimwear website, but also gives information about the history of Jewish clothing.
There is a photo of as 'tallit' (prayer shawl) on there that looks interesting, it's made of silk & is decorated withflowers.

I've also found that the Ashkenazi used to wear very ornate tallits ( some very feminine with brocade etc) and the middle & upper-class women also wore pretty tallits to attend synagogue.
Sorry, but I'm in Turkey using an ipad, which won't let me copy the photo on to here.
Amanda

[MrBarnett]

Hi Amanda,

A 'kosher' swimming cozzie? Now that is original thinking.

MrB

[Robert]

Then there is the ultra-orthodox swimming costume, which is a pilot coat.

[Caligo Umbrator]

Hi C.U,

It is a Jewish swimwear website, but also gives information about the history of Jewish clothing.
There is a photo of as 'tallit' (prayer shawl) on there that looks interesting, it's made of silk & is decorated withflowers.

I've also found that the Ashkenazi used to wear very ornate tallits ( some very feminine with brocade etc) and the middle & upper-class women also wore pretty tallits to attend synagogue.
Sorry, but I'm in Turkey using an ipad, which won't let me copy the photo on to here.
Amanda

Hi, Amanda.
Its a interesting theory.
I'm not Jewish myself but I had a long (almost too long for me) internet based conversation with a Jewish friend of mine in Jerusalem about almost this same subject last year.
Generally women are encouraged not to use the Tallit - indeed in certain places in Israel it is against the law. That was how the conversation came about in fact - a female friend of his was arrested for praying while wearing a Tallit.
For a male user, the Tallit is generally a basically white woolen cloth with limited blue, black or more rarely silver coloured stripes, similar in use and appearance but not quite the same as the keffiyeh. In both cases the design is relatively moderate and understated. For females they can indeed be more ornate, with pastel colours presented in stripes and more decorative and sometimes floral edge-work towards the ends of the material.
A distinct feature of any Tallit, whether for males or females, is that four distinct knotted chords are apparent - one on each corner of the material.
These lengthened strung knots are essential to the religious purpose of the Tallit and are very visible and distinct from the other shorter 'tassles' such a garment may have.
What you have proposed or suggested is indeed worth looking into, however I feel that the item in question is unlikely to qualify as a Tallit.
But that is just using my limited knowledge on the subject and certainly its something that should be looked into further, not least because of the potential Ashkenazi connection.
On the other work you have done here - very illuminating and fascinating stuff and intelligent conversation and I'm looking into some of it now.
Thanks, Caligo
PS - Your profile say youre in Shropshire - what are you doing in Turkey? Following up a lead?

[Amanda]

The point is...

Hi, Amanda.
Its a interesting theory.
I'm not Jewish myself but I had a long (almost too long for me) internet based conversation with a Jewish friend of mine in Jerusalem about almost this same subject last year.
Generally women are encouraged not to use the Tallit - indeed in certain places in Israel it is against the law. That was how the conversation came about in fact - a female friend of his was arrested for praying while wearing a Tallit.
For a male user, the Tallit is generally a basically white woolen cloth with limited blue, black or more rarely silver coloured stripes, similar in use and appearance but not quite the same as the keffiyeh. In both cases the design is relatively moderate and understated. For females they can indeed be more ornate, with pastel colours presented in stripes and more decorative and sometimes floral edge-work towards the ends of the material.
A distinct feature of any Tallit, whether for males or females, is that four distinct knotted chords are apparent - one on each corner of the material.
These lengthened strung knots are essential to the religious purpose of the Tallit and are very visible and distinct from the other shorter 'tassles' such a garment may have.
What you have proposed or suggested is indeed worth looking into, however I feel that the item in question is unlikely to qualify as a Tallit.
But that is just using my limited knowledge on the subject and certainly its something that should be looked into further, not least because of the potential Ashkenazi connection.
On the other work you have done here - very illuminating and fascinating stuff and intelligent conversation and I'm looking into some of it now.
Thanks, Caligo
PS - Your profile say youre in Shropshire - what are you doing in Turkey? Following up a lead?

Hi Caligo,
Think you've all missed the point on my last post regarding the tallit.
Quite right, it's not allowed in Israel but Ashkenazi women were allowed to wear them for prayer. These were not like the male tallits (white with blue stripes) but floral & embroidered.
Ashkenazi men of German descent also wore very ornate tallits. This was how one could identify with their own.
It's only a theory, so don't shoot me, but I just don't buy the table runner proposal.

What am I doing in Turkey? Sitting by the pool, sipping wine & putting the finishing touches to my manuscript (coming soon.".)

Will also be in Poland in November, might pop in for a cuppa with the Kozminski's.
Amanda

[Caligo Umbrator]

Hi, Amanda,
I'm certainly not shooting you.

I really think the whole 'table runner' thing needs to go away and die quietly in a dark corner - its a foolish idea from the start and likely inspired by the fear that someone might have solved this thing.
Not that I think this thing is solved, far from it.
And if it was would we stop, anyway?
History is far too invigorating and educational.

Interesting thought on the Tallits from Germany - I've travelled much in Europe but I'm not familiar with them. Time for some research in that area I think.
I lived in Poland and the Czech republic for a while ( when they were still communist ).
Where are you thinking of traveling to?
I'm also intrigued about what the manuscript is for. . . .
Thanks, Caligo

[Robert]

Were these prayer shawls handed down from mother to daughter? There must be a few still knocking around somewhere.

[Amanda]

Were these prayer shawls handed down from mother to daughter? There must be a few still knocking around somewhere.

Hi Robert,
Unfortunately not, according to tradition they were unique to the owner who was wrapped in the tallit upon burial.

Amanda

[Robert]

Hi Amanda

That's interesting, because IF it was a prayer shawl, and if it was brought to the scene by Aaron, then there would have been significant ructions in the Kosminski family if, for instance, Aaron had pinched his sister's or sister-in-law's prayer shawl.

[Amanda]

Thinking out of the box...

Hi, Amanda,
I'm certainly not shooting you.

I really think the whole 'table runner' thing needs to go away and die quietly in a dark corner - its a foolish idea from the start and likely inspired by the fear that someone might have solved this thing.
Not that I think this thing is solved, far from it.
And if it was would we stop, anyway?
History is far too invigorating and educational.

Interesting thought on the Tallits from Germany - I've travelled much in Europe but I'm not familiar with them. Time for some research in that area I think.
I lived in Poland and the Czech republic for a while ( when they were still communist ).
Where are you thinking of traveling to?
I'm also intrigued about what the manuscript is for. . . .
Thanks, Caligo

Hi Caligo,
You're so right about the table runner theory - and just imagine if it was really case closed.....
But I just can't realistically see how a policeman, far from his usual beat, happens to pop up at a murder scene, nab not the perpetrator but a vital piece of evidence and then take the dirty stained clue home to his wife!

Any wife in their right mind would think - " Whitechapel, prostitute, semen stains....divorce!"

I sincerely believe that the Simpson family came across the shawl by another means - most likely by Jane's connection with the Mocatto family - and the tales of it's origin have become changed with each new recital.
The Mocatto's had strong personal ties with Ashkenazi Jews, a factor which would tie in with some of the DNA results.

To be honest, it's good brain fodder to keep digging and every day we discover a little more unearthed history, which can only be a positive thing.

Anyway, Poland, just a few days based in Krakow with some visits to Auschwitz.

The manuscript - it's the biography of Thomas Neill Cream.

Back to the pool and some tallit searching now...
Amanda

[ajcol]

Hi Amanda,
There's at least one Synagogue in Krakow (The Old Synagogue in Kazimierz, if memory serves) which has a display of historical items relating to Jewry in Krakow - I can't specifically remember seeing any 'prayer shawls'....but you never know what might be on display if you pay it a visit!!
I think there may actually be something of that kind on display in one of the museum barracks at Auschwitz1 - or perhaps it was in the visitors centre, I'm not sure.
Alan

[Amanda]

Will try it...

Hi Amanda,
There's at least one Synagogue in Krakow (The Old Synagogue in Kazimierz, if memory serves) which has a display of historical items relating to Jewry in Krakow - I can't specifically remember seeing any 'prayer shawls'....but you never know what might be on display if you pay it a visit!!
I think there may actually be something of that kind on display in one of the museum barracks at Auschwitz1 - or perhaps it was in the visitors centre, I'm not sure.
Alan

Hi Alan,
Excellent info, I'll pop along and see what I can find.....

You don't put many posts on here, what's your theory about the heritage of the shawl - table runner - tallit - curtain - turban - sari - sarong - thingy?

Amanda

[mickreed]

Hi Caligo,
These were not like the male tallits (white with blue stripes) but floral & embroidered.
Ashkenazi men of German descent also wore very ornate tallits. This was how one could identify with their own.
It's only a theory, so don't shoot me, but I just don't buy the table runner proposal.

No guns aimed at you from this direction, Amanda. Now I'd not heard of a tallit until yesterday so I've no idea, but from the limited reading I've done since, it seems that Ashkenazi tallits tended to be woollen, whereas Sephardic ones were more likely to be of silk.

Is this right, and if so, does it have any implications for the case? Was Mrs Mocatta more likely to have a woollen one or a silk one? Jane Wilkins could shape up as a good source of the item.

[ajcol]

Thingy Theory!

To be honest, Amanda, I don't really know enough about it - and haven't been on here long enough to even catch up with all the 'evidence'/arguments (or post very much) -there's just so much going on in the boards. It's bloody fascinating stuff though (no pun intended!).
At the moment I'm leaning towards dodgy provenance, and the mtDNA seems a bit too 'iffy' to me as a layman, to place the item, whatever it is, in Mitre Sq with Kozminski and Catherine Eddowes together at those few exact moments in time!
I do remember my Grandmother having an old 'table runner' on a long sideboard/chest of drawers which had patterns at each end, though I think it was linen with crocheted end panels - would have been about same size though!
Also, interestingly to me at least, - my Grandfather told me many years ago, that he could remember his mother standing on their front step on winter evenings calling them in for bed saying "Jack The Ripper will get you if you don't come now!" (He was born in 1900)
I'll check with my son who lives in Krakow, about the location of that museum.
Alan

Oh.....and apologies to Monty for straying somewhat off-topic.