Dissertation- A curious find in Goulston Street by Derek Osborne

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  • Patrick Differ
    Detective
    • Dec 2024
    • 370

    #31
    Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
    Eddowes inquest.
    Coroner: “Had you been past that spot [in Goulston Street] previous to your discovering the apron?”
    PC Long: “I passed about twenty minutes past two o’clock.
    Coroner: “Are you able to say whether the apron was there then?
    PC Long: “It was not.”
    DC Halse: “At twenty minutes past two o’clock I passed over the spot where the piece of apron was found, but did not notice anything then. I should not necessarily have seen the piece of apron.”
    Two police witnesses in Goulston Street in the same place at approximately the same time. Yet neither reported seeing the other, the piece of apron, or the chalked message.
    The two policemen went their separate ways.
    Within the hour, PC Long would discover the piece of apron, and Detective Constable Halse would be first to notice at Golden Lane mortuary the piece of apron was missing from the deceased.
    You couldn't make this up.
    Thanks Simon. I dont believe there is any doubt the Ripper wrote the message and Toms points I believe are spot on.

    The significance of the message is that it tells us something about the killers thinking at the height of this double event. He took the time to state that " The Jews are the men that will be blamed".

    Written in a good school boys hand tells us that whoever this killer was he was educated in English. In my mind this says Englishman, not immigrant. Not Yiddish and not a Polish Jew.

    My thought regarding Stride and Eddowes and the apron and GSG is that the killer made his only possible mistake. Why was he headed West after killing Stride? Why were all the murders up to that point in Metro? Because as a local he knew Police habits. He knew his adversary. It was his turf.

    After being interrupted with Stride and his lust unsatisfied he took his only severe risk by murdering Eddowes in London City. On his journey west to his bolt hole. If his bolt hole was between Mitre Square and Goulston Street then his rationale might make more sense.

    The London City Police were now on his tail. He would need to throw them off somehow and not living far from Goulston and knowing its location ( again his turf), he had to draw the focus back to Metro. He seems to have avoided Halse and whoever was being drawn into the area.

    Halse and Long ( who was knew to the beat) never apparently crossed paths. In fact Long had no clue about Stride or Eddowes. Why would he? He was just a beat cop who was never called by whistle or anything else.

    How hard would it be for a man to walk 3 or 4 blocks from his home to Goulston which was only 3 blocks from the London City boundary?

    The killer did not travel north, south or east after killing Stride. He went west to London City. He then left evidence close to the City in Metro.

    And his next murder? In Metro, close to Hanbury and not far from London City.

    The witness Hutchinson claims to have posdibly seen the man he saw with Kelly several days later on Middlesex Street. The Metro- London City boundary.

    Whoever this killer was I do not believe it was an immigrant. I do believe he was attempting to blame them, since they were already a primary focus of the Police. He may have had a personal axe to grind with them as well as the Unfortunates. He certainly had the Authorities chasing their tails.

    Comment

    • Simon Wood
      Commissioner
      • Feb 2008
      • 5561

      #32
      Hi Patrick,

      I don't believe there was any graffiti in Goulston Street.

      It started life as the BSG [Berner Street graffiti]. It wasn't until October 8th that it became the GSG.

      The Pall Mall Gazette reported—

      "The witnesses who saw the writing, however, state that it was similar in character to the letters sent to the Central News and signed ‘Jack the Ripper.’

      "The police, consequently, are very anxious that any citizen who can identify the handwriting should without delay communicate with the authorities…”

      The subtext: Identify Dear Boss and you've identified the author of the GSG.

      Fat chance. The GSG had been erased. Also, from reports, the GSG had been written in a completely different hand.

      The City of London and Metropolitan Police officers who recorded the chalked message offered a combination of seven variations as to its spelling, grammar, capitalization and linage. Also, there was no overall consensus as to the precise location of the chalked message within the entrance to the block of flats.

      There's was some really shoddy police work going on there.

      Regards,

      Simon
      Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

      Comment

      • Scott Nelson
        Superintendent
        • Feb 2008
        • 2526

        #33
        Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
        The Ripper absolutely thought about where he was boundary-wise. How could he not?
        Because he may have been so crazed that he couldn't think rationally about where he was and what he was doing.

        Comment

        • FISHY1118
          Assistant Commissioner
          • May 2019
          • 3843

          #34
          Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
          Eddowes inquest.
          Coroner: “Had you been past that spot [in Goulston Street] previous to your discovering the apron?”
          PC Long: “I passed about twenty minutes past two o’clock.
          Coroner: “Are you able to say whether the apron was there then?
          PC Long: “It was not.”
          DC Halse: “At twenty minutes past two o’clock I passed over the spot where the piece of apron was found, but did not notice anything then. I should not necessarily have seen the piece of apron.”
          Two police witnesses in Goulston Street in the same place at approximately the same time. Yet neither reported seeing the other, the piece of apron, or the chalked message.
          The two policemen went their separate ways.
          Within the hour, PC Long would discover the piece of apron, and Detective Constable Halse would be first to notice at Golden Lane mortuary the piece of apron was missing from the deceased.
          You couldn't make this up.
          Perhaps it wasnt then.
          'It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is. It doesn't matter how smart you are . If it doesn't agree with experiment, its wrong'' . Richard Feynman

          Comment

          • Patrick Differ
            Detective
            • Dec 2024
            • 370

            #35
            Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

            Because he may have been so crazed that he couldn't think rationally about where he was and what he was doing.
            This killer took 5 minutes to kill Eddowes. He murdered his victims in complete silence and escaped PC Watkins said he could hear his own footfalls in the Square. Im not sure how crazed the killer was as opposed to being methodical and controlled when performing the murders. Stun- cut throat- mutilate- escape. In every case.

            Its hard to believe the GSG did not exist as it appears to have been recorded, debated and erased. The bigger issue in my mind is the apron. This would have been the 5th event in the sequence that night.

            1.Strides murder
            2. Travel west to mitre square
            3. Eddowes murder
            4. Flight to a nearby bolt hole
            5. Deposit of Apron on Goulston

            Sequence 4 depends upon the assumption PC Long and DC Halse did not see anything at the entrance of #108 Wentworth Buildings on Goulston street immediately after Eddowes body was discovered at 1:45 am.

            It is possible that the apron was simply missed and the GSG was not there. But that does not explain why all this killers victims were murdered in Metro except Eddowes, a rebound kill after getting interrupted with Stride? And then the Apron is found in Metro.

            How irrational and uncontrolled did this killer behave? I see the opposite.

            Why did this killer murder these women ( except Eddowes) in Metro and so close to the London City boundary? Because he lived in the London City area between Mitre Square and Goulston Street? Would Metro even talk to a killer living in London City? The Apron deposit in Metro makes sense if this is the logic.

            What I find interesting is that after Mary Kellys murder the London City Police, Detective Robert Sagar, were watching a man on Butchers Row he said that, for certain, he was the murderer. But again they could not prove it. Was this killer actually contained? Eddowes claimed she knew the killer and the last 2 places she was seen were on Aldgate across from Butchers Row and Church Passage. Possibly a coincidence. And possibly not.

            Comment

            • Lewis C
              Inspector
              • Dec 2022
              • 1433

              #36
              Originally posted by Patrick Differ View Post
              Why did this killer murder these women ( except Eddowes) in Metro and so close to the London City boundary? Because he lived in the London City area between Mitre Square and Goulston Street? Would Metro even talk to a killer living in London City? The Apron deposit in Metro makes sense if this is the logic.
              Hi Patrick,

              I'm not sure that the Nichols murder can really be said to have happened "so close to the London City boundary". If that can be said, then I think it could be said that all of Whitechapel and Spitalfields is close to the London City boundary. So does the fact that all the murders occurred in Whitechapel or Spitalfields point to the murderer living in London City proper? It's certainly possible, but I wouldn't say probable.

              Comment

              • Scott Nelson
                Superintendent
                • Feb 2008
                • 2526

                #37
                Originally posted by Patrick Differ View Post
                Why did this killer murder these women ( except Eddowes) in Metro and so close to the London City boundary? Because he lived in the London City area between Mitre Square and Goulston Street?
                He killed them where he encountered them and when no one else was looking. Did he necessarily live between Mitre Square and Goulston Street? It sounds like you've picked Jacob Levy as the Ripper. But what the Ripper lived somewhere else?

                Comment

                • Patrick Differ
                  Detective
                  • Dec 2024
                  • 370

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

                  He killed them where he encountered them and when no one else was looking. Did he necessarily live between Mitre Square and Goulston Street? It sounds like you've picked Jacob Levy as the Ripper. But what the Ripper lived somewhere else?
                  Hi Scott- Levy would be my first pick for quite a few reasons. I will list them.

                  1. In 1888- He lived at #36 Middlesex Street in London City. Central to all murders except Nichols and Stride. Prior to that he lived almost 4 years at 11 Fieldgate Street, central to Nichols and Stride. Lived in Whitechapel 32 years.
                  2. #36 was given to him by Frances Levy the mother of witness Joseph Hyam Levy, his first cousin.
                  3. Levy was a butcher who would have been an expert with a knife and capable of the murders. He lived his adult life cutting up animals.
                  4. He found his immediate older brother Abraham dead from hanging in 1875, Abraham was 22 and he was 19. Abraham lost a large gambling debt. Growing up in Whitechapel and before the influx of Immigrants they would have been heavily exposed to Vice.
                  5. 1886 March- At the height of his success at #36 he was caught red handed in a sting for meat theft. The Old Bailey records tell the story. The Police were tipped off by his next door neighbor (Hyman Sampson), who was a butcher and also an immigrant. Prior to being moved next store to Jacob Levy, Hyman Sampson resided on Goulston Street. Levy professed his innocence and said it was just a lark. ( imagine the humiliation of losing your position and status and the Levy Family legacy. To an immigrant who he felt set him up as it was Sampsons man Philips who worked with Police to pull off the sting). Levy had 32 pounds in his pocket. He did not need to steal any meat.
                  6. While in Jail awaiting trial for 2 weeks his father died and he was let out on bail to his sister Elizabeth and her husband Isaac Barnett).
                  7. Convicted in April 1886 - Levy went to Chelmsford for 12 months hard labor. He lasted 3 weeks on the tread wheel and attempted suicide by strangling in a similar manner to his brother Abraham. He was immediately declared criminally insane and sent to Essex Asylum where he stayed in general population for 11 months.
                  8. February 1887 to May 1888 - after Jacobs release he returns to #36 where his wife and 4 young children were forced to take over the business. Here is a man completely disgraced publically ( Jacob the criminal lunatic butcher as opposed to Jacob the Master Butcher). His wife describes him as a once shrewd businessman, who hears voices, cries for no reason, wanders aimlessly at night and showing all the signs of a paranoid schitzophrenic.
                  9. When Jacob returns he finds his nemisis Hyman Sampson on his death bed. There would be no revenge. He also discovers his Mother dying of cancer. Does he blame himself for his mother, the head a female dominated household. He has 6 older sisters including 2 step sisters. Jacob also finds his community changed as starting in 1886 the influx of immigrants from Poland resulted in growing anti immigrant sentiment. Higher rents, sweating, etc. In 1887 the Lipski trial would have been a replay of his own experience with a gentile justice system ( even the same barrister) that he despised. The Jewish Community was split on Lipski's guilt. By late 1887 the Socialists helped create Bloody Sunday with what was perceived as heavy police brutality.
                  10. Its hard to tell what 11 months in a Victorian Asylum would do to a person but one might imagine that it would not improve ones sanity. For Jacob he was now known as Jacob the criminal lunatic and had to take a back seat to his wife. ( As she declared..He almost ruined " Her" business. By 1888 he was seriously losing his mind.
                  11. 1888- Prior to the death of Jacobs mother in May 1888 there were several attacks on women. Between May and August it was quiet, primarily because it was the wettest and coldest summer in recent history. Dubbed the summer of malaise in the Press.

                  Was Jacob Levy the Ripper? All of the pieces are there including motive targeted at prostitutes, immigrant Jews and the Police. He had the skill set to stun- cut throats and mutilate or gut these women which is what happened.

                  In terms of being violent I cant imagine that living 32 years in Whitechapel, 1 month in prison and 11 months in a Victorian Asylum you were not exposed to human violence. Not to mention the perpetual violence against Animals Jacob would have been subjected to.

                  I ask myself whether this killer would be trying to prove anything with these murders beyond some insane perverted lust? Well if one considers the motive that the killer, feeling betrayed, falsely accused of a crime that literally destroys him and publically humiliates him then the murders might make sense. Did Jacob Levy , in his insanity, set out to prove to a community that he was still- Jacob Levy the Master Butcher and not Jacob Levy the criminal lunatic?? Was that Mary Kelly?

                  If it can be proven, and its a big if, that Jacob Levy was the Butcher being watched on Butchers Row by Detective Sagar and the London Police, then I think Jacob becomes Suspect #1. According to admission records at Stone Asylum, Jacob was committed ( for the 2nd time in his life) to Stone in August 1890 by " Friends". This matches what Sagar said about the killer being put in an Asylum by friends. However the friend is his older sister Elizabeths husband Isaac Barnett. They lived at #87 Middlesex and literally a Stones throw from #36. Was Jacob being followed to his sister and brother and laws house at #87 ?

                  What happened to Jacobs wife and children? They ended up moving into #87 with Jacobs older s

                  Comment

                  • Scott Nelson
                    Superintendent
                    • Feb 2008
                    • 2526

                    #39
                    Then you must believe Joseph Hyam Levy and his companions saw the Ripper and Eddowes on Duke Street. Doesn't the whole Jacob Levy hypothesis depend on this?

                    Comment

                    • Patrick Differ
                      Detective
                      • Dec 2024
                      • 370

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                      Then you must believe Joseph Hyam Levy and his companions saw the Ripper and Eddowes on Duke Street. Doesn't the whole Jacob Levy hypothesis depend on this?
                      Possibly. If JH Levy saw his cousin it would have been catastophic for his own family and the entire Jewish community. Especially the anglo community the Rothschilds and others fought long and hard to build and to gain acceptance within English Society. It might also explain how Sagar and the London Police were tipped off to watch a certain Butcher on Butchers Row. They had to find out somehow. The Levys were familiar with Butchers Row so putting them there is not an issue.

                      What if it came to light that it was Henry Matthews that let Jacob Levy out on the Streets? Would that bring down the government if he were in fact the Ripper. Who had the most to lose? Matthews, Rothschilds, Monarchy? Warren took the fall but Matthews may have been compromised . JH Levy would have insider information on his cousin. JH Levy would have known the ramifications to his own family legacy and business, and the destruction this knowledge would have caused overall.

                      Hutchinson claims he saw the man he saw with Kelly on Middlesex Street. A coincidence? What happened immediately after ?

                      Sagar contains a man who either works or has a reason to be on Butchers Row. They follow him from there to his brother or brother in laws house. ( #87 Middlesex Street? Not far from the intersection of Aldgate at Butchers Row?)

                      Its not clear what the relationship would be between Jacob and JH Levy. Jacob basically destroyed the business given to him by JH Levys mother Frances. A business that had been in the Levy family for almost a Century. JH Levy had no children but Jacob had 6. Would that have also affected his decisions?

                      Clearly, there was no way to prove Levy or apparently anyone else was the Ripper. The murders however likely stopped after Kelly. Either he was dead, left the Country or area , in an Asylum or being watched. We know someone was watched by Sagar sometime after Kelly. Jacob Levy was put in Stone Asylum in August 1890 and died in 1891.

                      As I said if Jacob Levy can be proven to be Sagars suspect then other pieces fall into place. So far I have found no other candidate but still looking. The needle in the haystack.

                      Comment

                      • Scott Nelson
                        Superintendent
                        • Feb 2008
                        • 2526

                        #41
                        Good luck. Something's got to give eventually.

                        Comment

                        • caz
                          Premium Member
                          • Feb 2008
                          • 10767

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Patrick Differ View Post

                          Thank you for the response Caz.

                          I think like most of us you try and understand the environment on the ground and one of the things I learned was that the Anglo Jews had become Anglicized to the point of resentment towards the mostly Polish immigrant Jews. It was reflected in the Jewish Chronicle and research from people like Feldman and Englander. The fear from the Anglo class was loss of gains within the English Society including Parliament. Rothschilds controlled the purse strings for Jews in Whitechapel.

                          i do not believe a Polish immigrant committed these murders. First of all the witnesses who describe a Jew ( all of them) either directly or by inferrance, do not describe a man with high cheekbones, large lips and wearing what amounted to rags. An impoverished look was a distinction that the Metro Police had come to recognize. Yiddish speaking was a huge problem for Metro and the result was the Metro Boys had to rely heavily on the Jewish Board of Guardians to translate disputes. The immigrant Jewish Class was tracked by Charles Booth with Edmund Reid in tow. The murders of these women coincides with the immigrant path east from Houndsditch.

                          I struggle with the thought that none of the eyewitnesses got it right. They all apparently saw a Jewish looking man wearing shabby gentile clothing, a sailor look or in the case of Hutchinson a man with an Astrahkan coat, jewelry and spats. They all had seemingly different hats. This would not match an impoverished immigrant speaking Yiddish or writing in English or heard speaking in English. It seems odd that Elizabeth Long would insert a look as foriegner had she not seen it. She didnt have to use the word but she apparently knew the distinction between inhabitants and appearance. The remaining witnesses appear to coincide more with Long than not.

                          The killer in my mind was a local Anglo Jew by default. His motive to implicate the Immigrant Jewish class was likely born out of something personal and the GSG, as it turns out, was focused in the Immigrant Class. ( Not an Englishman). It reflects the actual events on the ground. Also the witness testimony would be hard to completely write off in my opinion.

                          I exclude a gentile man because of witness testimony and location. Its not clear to me why a gentile man would kill gentile women and then write a message implicating Jews and drop an apron at a Jewish dwelling. Its possible but then you would have to throw all witness testimony out the windo. Eventhough the women were turning tricks in predominantly Jewish neighborhoods ( Booth).

                          Love you back
                          Patrick
                          Hi Patrick,

                          Mrs Long said she only saw the man from behind, yet she claimed he had the look of a foreigner. It's surely possible that many local people already had it in their minds, following the recent murders of Tabram and Nichols, that because "unfortunate" women were 'turning tricks in predominantly Jewish neighbourhoods', the killer was most probably a Jew who had either been propositioned, or was posing as a punter to prospective victims. It really wouldn't have taken much to see any man chatting to a woman on those streets at night as Jewish or at least foreign looking - unless a witness could have seen in poor light that the man had distinctive features to the contrary.

                          Witness descriptions can be notoriously unreliable in any era, under any conditions, but more so when the recent memory of seeing a man, who could very well have gone on to kill, is affected by prejudice, or merely what the witness is reading in the papers. In short, the man can become whatever the witness expected to see, or believe they saw. A gentile killer with a little money to show a victim could have picked up some flashy, second-hand items of clothing in Petticoat Lane cheaply enough, to give a false impression of his ethnicity at night.

                          Serial killers typically cast around for other people or groups to blame for their own actions. So I find it entirely plausible that a racist ripper would have targeted vulnerable gentile women in this small, downtrodden area of town, so he could mentally blame his victims for their fate, for having 'consorted' with the local Jews, while simultaneously blaming the Jews for paying for the services of gentile women, and blaming the authorities for turning a blind eye - a bit like Peter Sutcliffe, self-righteously pretending he was cleaning the streets. I don't think he actually believed it for a moment.

                          The apron and message could have been the ripper's way of saying: "If this kind of thing wasn't happening right under Whitechapel noses, I'd be out of a job. See what you all made me do?"

                          Love,

                          Caz
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                          Last edited by caz; Today, 03:49 PM.
                          "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


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