Suppose a City PC did see something near Mitre Square

[Cogidubnus]

Hello Jon/Monty

It appears to me that there is some confusion here between the duties of a Coroner for an Inquest where cause of death is yet to be established, and the Coroner's duties in a murder Case where an accused is on trial.

You're probably right...I said at the outset that I didn't pretend to be an expert - however, all the sections quoted above lie under the heading of Inquests, and I'm now thoroughly confused as to where the line is drawn...is it Section 4(2) onwards?

All the best

Dave

[Phil H]

The robbery was discovered on the Monday, after the murder Phil.

Thanks for the clarification, Monty. I couldn't remember.

But my point was really might not the robbery also explain some of the men seen acting in a suspicious or surreptitious way at that time - casing the joint-maybe, standing guard, whatever.

Just a thought.

Phil

[pinkmoon]

I remember reading a story (which has never been proven genuine) about a police man of the name of white which said police were stalking out a court and out of the court came a man who's description is spot on to druitt who stumbled than walked of .He was wearing rubber soled shoes pc white helped him up and man walked of next minute police discoverd body in court.If this story is true I don't think police would like this to be known because they would look extremely stupid.

[Phil H]

pinkmoon - I think you'll find that the story has been well looked into.

You might even find some threads here on Casebook - search under Stephen White. Indeed, I think you'll find that the story is referenced in earlier posts in this thread.

Check these:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=71&highlight=Stephen+White

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6450&highlight=Stephen+White

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=3187

There is also a dissertation here:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-amos.html

The story - as I recall - emerged later after White himself had died (in an obituary in the 1920s -though that's from memory and I maybe wrong) In art terms, its provenance is not good.

Also the circumstances do not seem to jive well with the circumstances surrounding Mitre Square. Though the story was at one time popular because the description of the softly spoken stranger seemed to fit MJ Druitt!!

Hope this helps.

Phil

[pinkmoon]

I read it over 20 years ago in Martin Howells book I do think though we have to take it with a pinch of salt seems a bit to good to be true how ever I do think if it was true police would not make it public.I wonder if that story was floating around at time of macnaughton could be part of his" private information" let's face it that description is so much like druitts

[Phil H]

let's face it that description is so much like druitts

And probably thousands of other young middle class gentlemen in London in the 1880s.

Sorry but I had to say that!

Phil

[pinkmoon]

Valid point Phil if this incident did actually happen then surely police would have issued this description of suspect to general public after all they wouldn't have to say how they came across it

[Damaso Marte]

My new theory: there was a communicable disease in 1888 London, causing late in life confusion of memories, and the police officials who investigated the Ripper murders all got it from each other.

[lynn cates]

suspicious

Hello Phil.

"might not the robbery also explain some of the men seen acting in a suspicious or surreptitious way at that time"

Which men are these?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

communicable disease

Hello Damaso.

"there was a communicable disease in 1888 London, causing late in life confusion of memories, and the police officials who investigated the Ripper murders all got it from each other."

Hoof and mouth disease, perhaps? When one opened his mouth, he put his hoof in it. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Beowulf]

My new theory: there was a communicable disease in 1888 London, causing late in life confusion of memories, and the police officials who investigated the Ripper murders all got it from each other.

Wow. There is that same disease making a resurgence on Long Island out by Gilgo beach

[Fleetwood Mac]

Suppose the reference to "a city PC near Mitre Square" was not in fact a reference to Lawende, but that, say, an actual city PC saw somebody leaving Mitre Square in a suspicious manner shortly before the body was discovered. Obviously, no record of such a sighting exists in the materials we're familiar with.

How in line with 1888 standards and norms for police work would it have been for nothing to have been made public, not revealed at the inquest, etc? I know that today, police forces frequently do not reveal the full details of murders, in part to determine the veracity of any confessions that might be made.

It's a reasonable proposition.

We know that detectives in plain clothes were patrolling the border of City and Met territory.

Interesting that Halse ran off in a certain direction, and it turns out that he was right to run off in that direction as the apron was found on that route.

The interesting thing from the Sagar quote is: "well known man of Jewish appearance". Could be reading too much into this, but if he's a well known man then wouldn't they have known whether or not he was Jewish, and would it not have been: "well known Jewish man"?

Perhaps he looked Jewish but wasn't.

Seems there is more than source of the 'City PC' sighting.

Personally, I think it did happen and it wasn't Harvey or Watkins.

Not sure what people's thoughts are on the: "out of the court near the square" comment. Could this mean it wasn't actually coming out of one of three allies but somewhere nearby?

[Wickerman]

The interesting thing from the Sagar quote is: "well known man of Jewish appearance". Could be reading too much into this, but if he's a well known man then wouldn't they have known whether or not he was Jewish, and would it not have been: "well known Jewish man"?

As is often the case, there is nothing certain about Sagar's words. There are three versions available..

- "..a police-constable met a man of Jewish appearance hurrying out of the court."
The Morning Leader, 9 Jan. 1905

- "..A police officer met a well-known man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court near the square,"
Daily News, 9 Jan. 1905

- "..A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court"
Seattle Daily Times, 4 Feb. 1905

Personally, I think it did happen and it wasn't Harvey or Watkins.

The Daily News added: "...and a few moments after fell over the body."
Whereas, in the Seattle Daily times we read: "...Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body."

Watkins is the only PC we know of who stumbled across the body.

[Fleetwood Mac]

As is often the case, there is nothing certain about Sagar's words. There are three versions available..

- "..a police-constable met a man of Jewish appearance hurrying out of the court."
The Morning Leader, 9 Jan. 1905

- "..A police officer met a well-known man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court near the square,"
Daily News, 9 Jan. 1905

- "..A police officer met a well dressed man of Jewish appearance coming out of the court"
Seattle Daily Times, 4 Feb. 1905



The Daily News added: "...and a few moments after fell over the body."
Whereas, in the Seattle Daily times we read: "...Continuing on his patrol he came across the woman's body."

Watkins is the only PC we know of who stumbled across the body.

Jon, what's your opinion of: "the court near the square"? Does this make sense in the context of Watkins's beat?

[Damaso Marte]

It would make perfect sense that Watkins was the witness here...but what of Anderson's belief that the eyewitness didn't want to testify against a fellow Jew? Watkins does not sound like a Jewish last name to me, to say the least.

The more police memoirs I read, the less I know about this case.