PC Watkins

[Jenni Shelden]

Rob and Neil,

I wouldnt say that shocked was the right word, but surprised yes. Mainly because, prior to reading this article I couldnt think of a bad word that had ever been sadi about Watkins. I can recall joking in the past with Rob that Morris was the Ripper (and I mean joking) but then you guys find out that for us! What a corker!

Looking forward to the rest of the series

Jenni

[Supe]

Jen,

I can recall joking in the past with Rob that Morris was the Ripper (and I mean joking)

Rob Hill is not amused.

Don.

[Robert]

I too always considered Watkins an upstanding officer - I mean - er....

[Scott Nelson]

Eddy Upright.

[Monty]

Rob and Neil,

I wouldnt say that shocked was the right word, but surprised yes. Mainly because, prior to reading this article I couldnt think of a bad word that had ever been sadi about Watkins....

Thats exactly my view Jenn. I spent an age trying to find a bad opinion of him in both press and police reports.
I couldnt.

Dons point about the difference in time between Watkins indescretions and him finding Eddowes is valid and should be considered. Either he improved his behavior in those years or he wasnt caught, or maybe a bit of both.

Suffice to say, Watkins wasnt the only naughty PC in the City team. Infact, out of the 7 or so PCs/DCs we are looking at only 1 seems to have an exemplory record.

Cheers
Monty

[Jenni Shelden]

Hi Rob and Neil,

well am looking forward to reading the rest of the series in due course.

I wonder if there was anything that might be said in Watkins favour.

Jenni

[perrymason]

Hi Rob and Neil,

well am looking forward to reading the rest of the series in due course.

I wonder if there was anything that might be said in Watkins favour.

Jenni

That he didnt trip over Kate maybe?

Cheers Jen

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Bear in mind I haven't read this stuff about Watkins, so I'm probably out of the loop, but... so? Sure enough it's not strictly professional but being caught with your trousers down isn't exactly that big a crime; I mean, it's not like they had Xboxes or could go out clubbing, sex and booze was the only past time they had in those days (well, aside from ripping out ladies' entrails ;p). Though he probably should've waited till he was off duty and done the business with his missus (assuming he had one) rather than 'cheat' on her with a prostitute[?].

Like yourselves, I doubt Watkins was into any pimping which you claim went on from time to time among certain corrupted pc"s, but he may have been on reasonably friendly terms with women such as Kate and may even have enjoyed "shining a light" into darkened corners like the one in Mitre Square to liven up the boredom of his Saturday night beat!
Watkins could have seen a little more than he was willing to own to that night......as indeed may others, such as the ex policeman/watchman Morris who seems to me to have been a possible "peeping Tom" ,admitting to leaving his door "ajar" and standing outside it for a while each night,including that night,in the full knowledge that the spot directly opposite him was where the local "unfortunates" brought their clients -especially on Saturday nights!

LOL, I hope so. That's one of the funniest things I've pictured in my mind's eye about this case yet.

[Monty]

M&P

Judging by the census reports, Watkins first wife was not around by the time of the offence. Though Augusta, the second woman in his life, is later listed as a Watkins, the 1911 census has her under her maiden name of Fowler.

Its most likely Edward and Augusta were living as Common law man and wife.

Monty

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Ah! Cheers mate. xD

[Natalie Severn]

Bear in mind I haven't read this stuff about Watkins, so I'm probably out of the loop, but... so? Sure enough it's not strictly professional but being caught with your trousers down isn't exactly that big a crime; I mean, it's not like they had Xboxes or could go out clubbing, sex and booze was the only past time they had in those days (well, aside from ripping out ladies' entrails ;p). Though he probably should've waited till he was off duty and done the business with his missus (assuming he had one) rather than 'cheat' on her with a prostitute[?].


LOL, I hope so. That's one of the funniest things I've pictured in my mind's eye about this case yet.

Me too It must have been pretty boring most nights for these late night beat coppers and the likes of Morris so I reckon they probably looked forward to the Saturday night shimmies by Kate and co............little realising the dreadful eyeful they were about to get.Something strange about the ripper flaunting his public executions---I mean in addition to his predilection for actually cutting women"s bodies open.
Cheers M&P

[Monty]

Old Bailey

Whilst trying to help Chris Scott the elusive PC L63, I came across this on Watkins.

11th Jan 1886

223. CLARA TURNER (23) , Stealing a comb and other articles and 1l. 10s. from the person of Thomas Knoling Edwards.

MR. TICKELL Prosecuted; MR. BURNIE Defended.

THOMAS KNOLING EDWARDS . On 23rd December I lived at 19, Station Road, Camberwell—I am now a foreman shipwright, working at Chatham Dockyard—on the evening of 23rd December, between 9 and 10 I think, I met the prisoner near the Royal Exchange—she said "Good night; it is rather cold?"—I said "Yes, it is"—she said "Will you stand a liquor?"—I said "I don't mind"—we went into a public-house three or four minutes' walk off—I stood her port wine, and had whisky myself—I paid with money out of my purse—I caught her hand in my right-hand trousers pocket in the public-house, and said "What are you doing with your hand in my pocket?"—she pulled it out, and I held it with my left, and with my right felt that my purse was in my pocket—I used an expression, and said "You have robbed me"—she opened her hand and said "I haven't got anything belonging to you"—there had been between 5l. and 6l. in gold in the purse—I could tell by the fell that it was

See original safe when I took out the purse to pay for the drinks—I said "You infernal thief"—she said "I have not got anything belonging to you"—she went to move away—I caught hold of her and threw her down in a corner, and said "Turn it up"—two constables were sent for, and when they came I said "If you turn it up I won't expose you at all"—she said "I won't have anything to do with you"—one of the customers said to me "If you want your money you must give her into custody"—I tried to coax her, but could not get my money, and so gave her into custody—this comb is mine, and was in my left trousers pocket with this pencil case—I gave neither of them to the prisoner—I first knew I had lost them and she had them was when the constable came—I had been drinking, but knew perfectly well what I was about—I was a little fresh—I knew perfectly well I had lost my money—the prisoner was a perfect stranger to me.

Cross-examined. I do not know what time it was when I met her—I said afternoon at first before the Magistrate, and then rectified it and said evening—it was dark; the gas was alight—I had had a little more than I ought to take—I had been to High Holborn and the Strand that day, starting about 2 o'clock—I had nothing to drink till 5.30, when I left books at Ludgate Station which I had bought—between 5.30 and 10 I had been to two public-houses before I met the prisoner—I looked at the shops and got up to the Royal Exchange about 7 o'clock, and between there and Leadenhall Market I met the prisoner—this public-house was the only place I went to with her—I did not go to a house of accommodation with her—I did not give her the comb, the value of which was sixpence, to comb her hair with, nor the pencil, value about sixpence or fourpence, to write her address with—I did not give her a sovereign for herself—I don't know what time I went into the public-house—I dare say it was 10 or a quarter-past—I can't say what time the constable came—after he came I said to the prisoner "If you give me my money I will not give you in charge"—she said "I haven't got anything belonging to you"—I would have let her go if she had given it back to me; I did not want the exposure—there was nothing in her hand when I caught it in my pocket—the purse was in my pocket empty—I said before the Magistrate I paid for the drink with loose change I had—I meant that was in one of two fobs I have in my purse—I had not felt her hand in my pocket before—the sovereigns were in the purse by themselves, and the purse was folded up—I suggest she took the purse out, took the money, and put the purse back again.

JOHN LASHBROOK . I keep the Hercules, Leadenhall Street—on Wednesday, 23rd December, I saw the prisoner enter with the prosecutor about a quarter-past 10, and they remained till the constable came, about a quarter to 11.

EDWAKD WATKINS (City Policeman 881). I was called to the Hercules, where I saw the prisoner and prosecutor about a quarter to 11—the prosecutor said "This woman has robbed me of between 5l. and 6l. "—she said "I have not"—I said "Do you charge her?"—he said "No, not if she will return me the money"—he said to her "Are you going to return me the money?"—she said "I have got nothing belonging to you"—he said "Yes you have; you know you took it"—she said "No, I did not"—I said "Will you charge her?"—he said "No; I am afraid of the exposure; I am a married man"—I left.

See original Cross-examined. I left before 11—when I left there was nothing to prevent the prisoner coming away.

THOMAS OVERTON (City Policeman 914). A little after 11 o'clock on Wednesday night, the 23rd, I was called to the Hercules, and saw there the prisoner and prosecutor—the prosecutor said "This woman has robbed me; I charge her with stealing 5l. 10s. "—the other constable had gone—she said she had got nothing but what was her own—I took her to the station—she was carrying this bag (produced)—I searched it at the station, and found in it five sovereigns in gold, a sixpence, and 7d. in bronze, and also this comb and pencil-case.

Cross-examined. The prisoner said it was her own money—the prosecutor had been drinking, but was quite capable of knowing what he was about—the gold was loose in the bag; there was a handkerchief and gloves over it, but if it was put in and shaken the gold would fall to the bottom of the bag.

GUILTY . She then PLEADED GUILTY to a conviction of felony in June, 1885, in the name of Clara Smith. The warder who produced the certificate stated that the prisoner had been released on an order from the Secretary of State, who had investigated the matter, and that no other conviction had been proved against her.— Ten Months' Hard Labour.


Monty