Did PC Long see the Ripper in Goulston Street?

[Varqm]

Hi Varqm.

I believe it is the same Sgt. Bradshaw that was investigating William Wallace Brodie during the McKenzie murder. Sergeant Eugene Bradshaw, K Division, Stepney.

Hi Jerry,

Ok.Thanks. The one I had was Sgt. William Bradshaw and H Div. PC John Bradshaw.
This Eugene Bradshaw warrant no. 65836 joined: July 11 1881 dismissed: 7/31/1896

[Simon Wood]

More on Bettles, from the National Archives -

MEPO 4/344/100

Willie Bettles, warrant number 72919. Joined on 14 Nov 1887, and left on 7 April 1913. Last posted to V Division as a Station PS.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

I found this on Casebook -

Out of interest here are the details for PC Bettles

1881:
Stoke Doyle, Northamptonshire
Head: William Bettles aged 43 - Horse keeper
Wife: Ann Bettles aged 41
Children:
George E aged 15 - Agricultural labourer
Willie aged 13 - Agricultural labourer
Oliver C aged 11
Walter aged 9
Ernest aged 5
Fred aged 1
Herbert aged 1
All born in Stoke Doyle

1891:
District Police Section House. St Anne, London
Lodger:
Willie Bettles aged 23 born Stoke Doyle, Northants - Police Constable Metropolitan - Single

1901:
154 Malmesbury Road, Stratford, Bow
Head: Willie Bettles aged 33 born Northants - Police Sergeant
Wife: Mary A Bettles aged 34 born Offord D'Arcy, Hants
Children:
Percy aged 7 born Oundle, Northants
Dorothy aged 6 born Westminster
Elsie aged 4 born Westminster
Herbert aged 2 born Bromley by Bow

https://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4924/7167.html

Simon

[jerryd]

Willie Bettles
Appointed:Nov 14 1887
Resigned:7-14-13..I'm assuming 1913

It' is unusual that the Dorset St. patrolling officer was not in the Kelly inquest,probably drafted to the Lord Mayor's show or no patrols in the early morning.Same with the Hanbury St. patrolling officer during Chapman's case.The rest of the C5 had one.

I'm looking for the Sgt Bradshaw in the Kelly case,

"She was in the habit of going nightly to a publichouse at Fish-street-hill; but Sergeant
Bradshaw, on making inquiry at the house in question, found that she had not been there for upwards of a month
past."
Times (London)
Monday, November 12, 1888.

I can only find one Sgt. Bradshaw,in the Met,but from Hampstead division.The Bradshaw in the H division was a PC.Maybe a temp/draftee for the ripper months.No list exist of PC's temporarily drafted to H division,but maybe there was.

Hi Varqm.

I believe it is the same Sgt. Bradshaw that was investigating William Wallace Brodie during the McKenzie murder. Sergeant Eugene Bradshaw, K Division, Stepney.

[Michael W Richards]

Actually Simon and Michael, I believe it you look at the beat of PC Allen and PC Andrews on the night of Claypipe Alice's murder, you can get an idea. The two men split the beat that night. Allen to the eastern half and Andrews, the western half. This beat went as far as Middlesex Street to the west, which is actually the boundary of the City and Met police beats. (I believe the west side of Middlesex Street was patrolled by the City and the east side by the Met)

Lloyds Weekly, July 21, 1889 gives a bit of info on the streets as well as other press inquest reports. Interestingly, during that time anyways, Goulston Street appears to have been traveled in two halves. Andrews states he traveled from Newcastle Street into Whitechapel High, west to Goulston. Half way up Goulston and down the other side back to Whitechapel High Street. I believe the top half (Goulston) was done after Andrews exited the north end of Castle Street and headed west on Wentworth Street to Goulston Street. That's the best I can piece together from the accounts I have available.

Not sure if that helps or not. Monty also has the route that was used for that beat, IIRC, from 1930 or so.

Thats helpful jd, thanks. Ill add that its good to see and chat with you bud, stay safe and well.

[Varqm]

Willie Bettles
Appointed:Nov 14 1887
Resigned:7-14-13..I'm assuming 1913

It' is unusual that the Dorset St. patrolling officer was not in the Kelly inquest,probably drafted to the Lord Mayor's show or no patrols in the early morning.Same with the Hanbury St. patrolling officer during Chapman's case.The rest of the C5 had one.

I'm looking for the Sgt Bradshaw in the Kelly case,

"She was in the habit of going nightly to a publichouse at Fish-street-hill; but Sergeant
Bradshaw, on making inquiry at the house in question, found that she had not been there for upwards of a month
past."
Times (London)
Monday, November 12, 1888.

I can only find one Sgt. Bradshaw,in the Met,but from Hampstead division.The Bradshaw in the H division was a PC.Maybe a temp/draftee for the ripper months.No list exist of PC's temporarily drafted to H division,but maybe there was.

[jerryd]

I looked back at a post I made on JTR forums, the Kate Marshall case was actually from April of 1888. So Bettles was working the Dorset Street beat in early 1888.

Lloyds Weekly Newspaper April 22, 1888

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the information.

Where the question of PC Long's beat starts going pear-shaped is in the matter of who took it over during the two hours whilst Long detoured to Commercial Street police station, returned to Goulston Street with an Inspector, and then went to Leman Street police station, returning to Goulston Street at "about five o'clock," just in time to see the graffiti erased.

Long says it was Police Constable H 190, but did not know his name.

Do you know anything about this constable?

I hope you're keeping well.

Regards,

Simon

Simon.

All is well here. Hope the same for you.

PC 190H was Willie Bettles.( research by Monty and Chris Scott) I also found a PC 190H when researching Kate Marshall's case, patrolling Dorset Street, but that was many years after this, of course. And he is not named other than the collar number.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the information.

Where the question of PC Long's beat starts going pear-shaped is in the matter of who took it over during the two hours whilst Long detoured to Commercial Street police station, returned to Goulston Street with an Inspector, and then went to Leman Street police station, returning to Goulston Street at "about five o'clock," just in time to see the graffiti erased.

Long says it was Police Constable H 190, but did not know his name.

Do you know anything about this constable?

I hope you're keeping well.

Regards,

Simon

[jerryd]

Hi Michael,

No, it's not.

PC Long discovered the apron piece and chalked message during the first night on his new beat in Goulston Street, on which, strangely, he was unaccompanied.

But he did know the way from Goulston Street to Commercial Street police station.

Hope you're staying well.

Simon

Actually Simon and Michael, I believe it you look at the beat of PC Allen and PC Andrews on the night of Claypipe Alice's murder, you can get an idea. The two men split the beat that night. Allen to the eastern half and Andrews, the western half. This beat went as far as Middlesex Street to the west, which is actually the boundary of the City and Met police beats. (I believe the west side of Middlesex Street was patrolled by the City and the east side by the Met)

Lloyds Weekly, July 21, 1889 gives a bit of info on the streets as well as other press inquest reports. Interestingly, during that time anyways, Goulston Street appears to have been traveled in two halves. Andrews states he traveled from Newcastle Street into Whitechapel High, west to Goulston. Half way up Goulston and down the other side back to Whitechapel High Street. I believe the top half (Goulston) was done after Andrews exited the north end of Castle Street and headed west on Wentworth Street to Goulston Street. That's the best I can piece together from the accounts I have available.

Not sure if that helps or not. Monty also has the route that was used for that beat, IIRC, from 1930 or so.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael,

No, it's not.

PC Long discovered the apron piece and chalked message during the first night on his new beat in Goulston Street, on which, strangely, he was unaccompanied.

But he did know the way from Goulston Street to Commercial Street police station.

Hope you're staying well.

Simon

Thanks Simon, I am, and I hope youre doing well too. By the by...Lost my rescue Zoey last year... and just celebrated my first 6 months with new BF Willy, my Mexican refugee. Ill send you a pic.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Michael,

No, it's not.

PC Long discovered the apron piece and chalked message during the first night on his new beat in Goulston Street, on which, strangely, he was unaccompanied.

But he did know the way from Goulston Street to Commercial Street police station.

Hope you're staying well.

Simon

[Michael W Richards]

PC Long and DC Halse—two police witnesses in Goulston Street at approximately the same moment. Yet neither reported seeing the other, the piece of apron, or the chalked message.

Yet, within the hour, one of them would discover the piece of apron and chalked message, and the other would be the first to notice the piece of apron was missing from the deceased.

Hello my friend, nice to see you. On Long....is it written anywhere what his route was or where he was to go for that next loop just after passing the Model Homes entrance around 2:20?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Kattrup,



Regards,

Simon

[Kattrup]

PC Long and DC Halse—two police witnesses in Goulston Street at approximately the same moment. Yet neither reported seeing the other, the piece of apron, or the chalked message.

Yet, within the hour, one of them would discover the piece of apron and chalked message, and the other would be the first to notice the piece of apron was missing from the deceased.

Yes, it's almost like they're alert policemen looking for clues!