Did PC Long see the Ripper in Goulston Street?

[Simon Wood]

PC Long and DC Halse—two police witnesses in Goulston Street at approximately the same moment. Yet neither reported seeing the other, the piece of apron, or the chalked message.

Yet, within the hour, one of them would discover the piece of apron and chalked message, and the other would be the first to notice the piece of apron was missing from the deceased.

[erobitha]

Amusingly, yes, it was. But let's be honest, that's an easy mistake to make. But, it revives the old threads and gives us something else to talk about.

But it is funny when someone does that, all the same.
Don't be dissuaded Juniper, just start your post with "I know this is an old thread but"

Or, start your post with "I know this is old hat/rope (delete as appropriate) but", it's essentially the same.

It certainly wasn't meant to be a slight on Jun's character. Just amazing how such topics remain timeless. Even if it was 13 years after the last reply :0

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Was that just a reply to 13 year old post I just read?

Amusingly, yes, it was. But let's be honest, that's an easy mistake to make. But, it revives the old threads and gives us something else to talk about.

But it is funny when someone does that, all the same.
Don't be dissuaded Juniper, just start your post with "I know this is an old thread but"

Or, start your post with "I know this is old hat/rope (delete as appropriate) but", it's essentially the same.

[erobitha]

Hi Monty/All

In your opnion, how diligent were the constables on their beats during the time of the Ripper?

I mean, it was raining the night the of the double event and I am toying with how lucky/made his luck Jack was that night. Be it how he slipped away from Berner Street and also with timings involved with Kate Eddowes; the ability to act between the two beats and conduct his work in such a short period of time.

Jim

Was that just a reply to 13 year old post I just read?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Monty/All

In your opnion, how diligent were the constables on their beats during the time of the Ripper?

I mean, it was raining the night the of the double event and I am toying with how lucky/made his luck Jack was that night. Be it how he slipped away from Berner Street and also with timings involved with Kate Eddowes; the ability to act between the two beats and conduct his work in such a short period of time.

Jim

hi jun
im sure they were very diligent. its just he was very crafty and perceptive. after being interupted with stride and not being able to finish he made his way to mitre square area and found eddowes, waited till the coast was clear and did his thing. then threw in a monkey wrench blaming jews by leaving the apron and graffiti. no crazy person or stupid thug would have been able to pull off the events of the double event, defeating two police forces and leaving them all out of sorts and bickering. he blended in and slipped away every time. again pointing to a local serial killer with intimate and hands on experience of the east end environment.

[Juniper4576]

Observer,

I see you get my drift now.

Just because Long didnt see Jack doesnt mean he wasnt there.

Where was that apron piece found?

Perry,

If is such a big word.

You can run amile in a minute. Do me a favour. Get a stop watch. Start it and, without looking, stop it when you think a minute is up.

I bet you that your 20 seconds short.

This is all conjecture however, on my part as well.

Monty

Hi Monty/All

In your opnion, how diligent were the constables on their beats during the time of the Ripper?

I mean, it was raining the night the of the double event and I am toying with how lucky/made his luck Jack was that night. Be it how he slipped away from Berner Street and also with timings involved with Kate Eddowes; the ability to act between the two beats and conduct his work in such a short period of time.

Jim

[caz]

Hi All,

I doubt there would have been too many people about on minor roads, but I also doubt the more major thorouhfares would ever have been totally empty, regardless of the hour.

Today, whenever I stay overnight in the East End, I get the club downstairs tipping out at 3am on the Sunday morning, shouting and laughing and car horns blaring at regular intervals after that, then by 4am the road sweepers and assorted noises of shop and market stall traders along Brick Lane starting up. If I haven't had enough gins on the Saturday night I don't get much sleep.

I suspect it was much the same if not worse on any Saturday night/Sunday morning in 1888, especially in the vicinity of Petticoat Lane. I doubt there would have been much of a window, if at all, between the late night and early morning activities. Saturday night was the traditional night for fighting, drinking and general revelry into the wee small hours, but very early on Sunday morning was when the 'Jews' Market' traders would already be up and preparing for a busy day's work. A different set of people, no doubt, in every way, with very different priorities. But how long after the revelers tended to drift off to their individual bases would the workers have begun to emerge from theirs and make their presence felt?

Have a great weekend all.

Love,

Caz
X

[Observer]

Hi Nell

Not so sure Observer. Sarah Lewis and George Hutchinson both described seeing a fair few people about, most of them probably innocent bystanders. There were so many homeless people sleeping under the railway arches, Itchy park etc, and the pubs open all hours. My guess is that the streets in the small hours were more populous than we are used to today.

Long may not have attached the significance to his memories of Goulston Street pre-apron which Smith did to Berner Street where a murder occurred.

As Sam pointed out Nell Lewis and Hutchinson sighted only 4 people at maximum. I would agree with you regarding the fact that the population of late Victorian London arose ealier, due to longer working hours. But I would say that between the hours of say 1:00 a.m. and 4:00 a.m. there would be very few people actually walking the streets.

Regarding Long and his memory.

Long would have been aware of the signifigance of the piece of apron he had retrieved, he also wrote down the chalked message that appeared on the wall next to the apron. Surely he would have wracked his brain that September morning trying to recall what had transpired during his beat? And if he had seen someone in the vicinity of the graffiti, bearing in mind the sparsity of people on the streets, I'm sure he would have remembered any individual in question.

Observer

[FrankO]

Hi Monty,

If is such a big word.

You can run amile in a minute. Do me a favour. Get a stop watch. Start it and, without looking, stop it when you think a minute is up.

I bet you that your 20 seconds short.

This is all conjecture however, on my part as well.

You're quite right here. I don't think more than 5 minutes needed to have elapsed between the couple moving from where they were seen by Lawende & Co and Jack leaving the crime scene.

All the best,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Nell,

Not so sure Observer. Sarah Lewis and George Hutchinson both described seeing a fair few people about.

They only reported seeing at most seven people that night, and that includes Hutchinson's sighting of Kelly and her man. If the man and woman seen by Lewis were in fact Kelly and "client" (which is vaguely possible), then that reduces the total of individuals seen to three: Lewis's Wideawake-man; Hutchinson's policeman; and the man seen going into a lodging-house. If Widewake-man and Lodginghouse-man were one and the same person (or Hutchinson was indeed Mr Wideawake), then that reduces the total still further. There are other permutations, but whichever way one cuts it there seem to have been very few people in Dorset Street between 2 and 3 on the morning of the Kelly murder.

This would seem to be consistent with the small number of people reportedly seen after the Eddowes murder, in roughly the same part of town and during practically the same hour.

[Carrotty Nell]

Hi Steje

I understand what you are saying, but really, I can't see there being that many people on the streets at that time of the morning

Observer

Not so sure Observer. Sarah Lewis and George Hutchinson both described seeing a fair few people about, most of them probably innocent bystanders. There were so many homeless people sleeping under the railway arches, Itchy park etc, and the pubs open all hours. My guess is that the streets in the small hours were more populous than we are used to today.

Long may not have attached the significance to his memories of Goulston Street pre-apron which Smith did to Berner Street where a murder occurred.

Perry,

If is such a big word.

Monty

I hear you Monty...thats why I made it bold.

I think on Long, its quite possible that he saw the cloth shortly after it was left there....so the closest he got to being where Jack was was standing at the spot where he had been a few minutes earlier....close to an hour after Kate's murder.

I believe the apron was discarded when no longer needed, and its contents were safely off his person. And that wasnt before Longs first pass by.

Best regards.

[Monty]

Observer,

I see you get my drift now.

Just because Long didnt see Jack doesnt mean he wasnt there.

Where was that apron piece found?

Perry,

If is such a big word.

You can run amile in a minute. Do me a favour. Get a stop watch. Start it and, without looking, stop it when you think a minute is up.

I bet you that your 20 seconds short.

This is all conjecture however, on my part as well.

Monty

[Observer]

Hi Steje

I understand what you are saying, but really, I can't see there being that many people on the streets at that time of the morning

Observer

[Observer]

H Perry

So, the killer was almost certainly there at 1:42, therefore its far more likely that Harvey wasnt, or if he was, he missed seeing a murder in progress.

Cheers all.

Which is entirely possible Perry, i.e. he missed seeing a murder in progress.

Observer