Did PC Long see the Ripper in Goulston Street?

[Observer]

Hi

From no bloody piece of apron thread

"Upon Monty's recounting of Gavin Bromelys article on the Eddowes murder, namely that it was possible for Jack to have escaped prior to Harveys trip down Church passage at 1.42am."

Monty theorized that

"Therefore Jack may have left the Square approx 1.41/2am.

The time it takes to get to Goulston Street is roughly 3 to 4 mins at a brisk walk.

Lets say Jack went straight to Goulston St, his arrival would have been approx 1.46am.

Taking Longs beat time of 35 mins, working back from when he says he was certainly in Goulston Street (2.20am), puts Long in the same place at ??"

I replied that the reson why Long did not see the Ripper was down to

"Split second timing, with Long missing the Ripper by seconds."

Monty replied

"What if the Ripper didnt miss Long though?

Just thoughts, nothing more."

So what is Monty saying here? That Long did encounter the Ripper in Goulston Street? Could that be possible?

Observer

[steje73]

It could be, I suppose. Jack knew who he was and would have been looking out for policemen. Long wouldn't necessarily have been aware that there had been a murder yet and wouldn't have been looking for Jack. Anyone Long encountered wouldn't then have given him any cause to recollect them.

[Observer]

Hi Steje

Come on, it was the early hours of the morning, hardly the rush hour, PC Smith remembered seeing Stide in Berner Street, surely Long would have remembered seeing someone in Goulston Street at that time.

One things for sure, Long did not mention any sighting at the inquest.

Observer

[perrymason]

With due respect to the opinions of Gavin and Monty, if Lawende saw Kate and her killer at the approximate time he and his chums give for seeing them, then there is no way the killer leaves the square before 1:42am.

1:35am- seen by Lawende, Levy and Harris, outside Mitre Square.
1:43-44am -Kate found dead by Watkins, inside the square.

If the killer had only done what was done to Liz, no problem. But that is so far from the reality. Taking into account the roughly two or three minutes to get there, subdue her, and leave, that leaves 5-6 minutes total for all the injuries and the apron cutting. Taking a kidney out through her front, among the other atrocities. In near darkness.

So, the killer was almost certainly there at 1:42, therefore its far more likely that Harvey wasnt, or if he was, he missed seeing a murder in progress.

Cheers all.

[steje73]

Hi Steje

Come on, it was the early hours of the morning, hardly the rush hour, PC Smith remembered seeing Stide in Berner Street, surely Long would have remembered seeing someone in Goulston Street at that time.

One things for sure, Long did not mention any sighting at the inquest.

Observer

I just meant that Long might have remembered seeing someone if he knew he had to look for a murderer. There might have been people going to and from work, bakers or whatever, at that time every day and it mightn't have aroused his suspicion if he saw someone. If it was a bit rainy then a huddled figure hurrying along still mightn't have bothered him.
Just making the suggestion.

[Observer]

H Perry

So, the killer was almost certainly there at 1:42, therefore its far more likely that Harvey wasnt, or if he was, he missed seeing a murder in progress.

Cheers all.

Which is entirely possible Perry, i.e. he missed seeing a murder in progress.

Observer

[Observer]

Hi Steje

I understand what you are saying, but really, I can't see there being that many people on the streets at that time of the morning

Observer

[Monty]

Observer,

I see you get my drift now.

Just because Long didnt see Jack doesnt mean he wasnt there.

Where was that apron piece found?

Perry,

If is such a big word.

You can run amile in a minute. Do me a favour. Get a stop watch. Start it and, without looking, stop it when you think a minute is up.

I bet you that your 20 seconds short.

This is all conjecture however, on my part as well.

Monty

[perrymason]

Perry,

If is such a big word.

Monty

I hear you Monty...thats why I made it bold.

I think on Long, its quite possible that he saw the cloth shortly after it was left there....so the closest he got to being where Jack was was standing at the spot where he had been a few minutes earlier....close to an hour after Kate's murder.

I believe the apron was discarded when no longer needed, and its contents were safely off his person. And that wasnt before Longs first pass by.

Best regards.

[Carrotty Nell]

Hi Steje

I understand what you are saying, but really, I can't see there being that many people on the streets at that time of the morning

Observer

Not so sure Observer. Sarah Lewis and George Hutchinson both described seeing a fair few people about, most of them probably innocent bystanders. There were so many homeless people sleeping under the railway arches, Itchy park etc, and the pubs open all hours. My guess is that the streets in the small hours were more populous than we are used to today.

Long may not have attached the significance to his memories of Goulston Street pre-apron which Smith did to Berner Street where a murder occurred.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Nell,

Not so sure Observer. Sarah Lewis and George Hutchinson both described seeing a fair few people about.

They only reported seeing at most seven people that night, and that includes Hutchinson's sighting of Kelly and her man. If the man and woman seen by Lewis were in fact Kelly and "client" (which is vaguely possible), then that reduces the total of individuals seen to three: Lewis's Wideawake-man; Hutchinson's policeman; and the man seen going into a lodging-house. If Widewake-man and Lodginghouse-man were one and the same person (or Hutchinson was indeed Mr Wideawake), then that reduces the total still further. There are other permutations, but whichever way one cuts it there seem to have been very few people in Dorset Street between 2 and 3 on the morning of the Kelly murder.

This would seem to be consistent with the small number of people reportedly seen after the Eddowes murder, in roughly the same part of town and during practically the same hour.

[FrankO]

Hi Monty,

If is such a big word.

You can run amile in a minute. Do me a favour. Get a stop watch. Start it and, without looking, stop it when you think a minute is up.

I bet you that your 20 seconds short.

This is all conjecture however, on my part as well.

You're quite right here. I don't think more than 5 minutes needed to have elapsed between the couple moving from where they were seen by Lawende & Co and Jack leaving the crime scene.

All the best,
Frank

[Observer]

Hi Nell

Not so sure Observer. Sarah Lewis and George Hutchinson both described seeing a fair few people about, most of them probably innocent bystanders. There were so many homeless people sleeping under the railway arches, Itchy park etc, and the pubs open all hours. My guess is that the streets in the small hours were more populous than we are used to today.

Long may not have attached the significance to his memories of Goulston Street pre-apron which Smith did to Berner Street where a murder occurred.

As Sam pointed out Nell Lewis and Hutchinson sighted only 4 people at maximum. I would agree with you regarding the fact that the population of late Victorian London arose ealier, due to longer working hours. But I would say that between the hours of say 1:00 a.m. and 4:00 a.m. there would be very few people actually walking the streets.

Regarding Long and his memory.

Long would have been aware of the signifigance of the piece of apron he had retrieved, he also wrote down the chalked message that appeared on the wall next to the apron. Surely he would have wracked his brain that September morning trying to recall what had transpired during his beat? And if he had seen someone in the vicinity of the graffiti, bearing in mind the sparsity of people on the streets, I'm sure he would have remembered any individual in question.

Observer

[caz]

Hi All,

I doubt there would have been too many people about on minor roads, but I also doubt the more major thorouhfares would ever have been totally empty, regardless of the hour.

Today, whenever I stay overnight in the East End, I get the club downstairs tipping out at 3am on the Sunday morning, shouting and laughing and car horns blaring at regular intervals after that, then by 4am the road sweepers and assorted noises of shop and market stall traders along Brick Lane starting up. If I haven't had enough gins on the Saturday night I don't get much sleep.

I suspect it was much the same if not worse on any Saturday night/Sunday morning in 1888, especially in the vicinity of Petticoat Lane. I doubt there would have been much of a window, if at all, between the late night and early morning activities. Saturday night was the traditional night for fighting, drinking and general revelry into the wee small hours, but very early on Sunday morning was when the 'Jews' Market' traders would already be up and preparing for a busy day's work. A different set of people, no doubt, in every way, with very different priorities. But how long after the revelers tended to drift off to their individual bases would the workers have begun to emerge from theirs and make their presence felt?

Have a great weekend all.

Love,

Caz
X

[Juniper4576]

Observer,

I see you get my drift now.

Just because Long didnt see Jack doesnt mean he wasnt there.

Where was that apron piece found?

Perry,

If is such a big word.

You can run amile in a minute. Do me a favour. Get a stop watch. Start it and, without looking, stop it when you think a minute is up.

I bet you that your 20 seconds short.

This is all conjecture however, on my part as well.

Monty

Hi Monty/All

In your opnion, how diligent were the constables on their beats during the time of the Ripper?

I mean, it was raining the night the of the double event and I am toying with how lucky/made his luck Jack was that night. Be it how he slipped away from Berner Street and also with timings involved with Kate Eddowes; the ability to act between the two beats and conduct his work in such a short period of time.

Jim