The could be knife Thomas Coram found on October the 1st 1888

[niko]

Hello to everybody, my name is Niko. Firstly i would like to say its a pleasure on joining the forum, i have been reading various threads on this forum and i must addmit a lot of you know a hell of a lot about the Whitechapel murders, i wish i could say the same about me. not too good on handling the computer, the other day i accidently named myself ripperologist on facebook, ( what a bodge up ). I joined this forum to see if anyone could help me with the following subject. I think i have the knife Thomas Coram found along the Whitechpel Road. I lived in the East End of London, in the heart where Jack the ripper commited his horrific murders. At the age of seventeen whilst working in a near by railway arch to my home i unburried a knife. The condition of the knife found was as follows - a twelve inch long knife, the blade of the knife was bent or turned, the blade was covered in a thick crust, the handle was wraped up in a rotten cloth and a thin string tied around the blade end of the handle. I remember the string being very neatly tied. I after straightened the blade and cleaned all the knife (now i know that was a stupid thing to do). However in 2006 i became interested on JTR, i started looking on the internet and to my suprise i came across some amazing information, being the following - a man called Thomas Coram on Monday the 1st of October 1888 at half past midnight found a twelve inch long knife on a door step along the Whitechapel Road. He handed the knife to P.C Joseph Drage, who further on took it to Leman Street Police Station. The discription of the knife found was as follows - along bladed knife with a hankerchief tied around the handle, both knife and hankie were stained with blood. I have my own hypothesis about the Whitechapel murders. I have spoken with the up most experts on JTR they make me belive, they think im inventing the whole story up, " im telling the truth its not in my nature to lie". I have also come to think that society has been more interested in making money from JTR than actually interested in resolving who was or who were the real Jack the ripper for once and for all. I ask myself many questions about the JTR case, but one that baffles me is,if it is the SAME KNIFE, how did it get from being in Police custody at Leman Street Police Station, to being burried for more than a hundred years in a railway arch in the East End. In my research i have found a possible conection between the arch were i found the evil knife and Aaron Kozminski, the number one suspect i think at the time of the murders. The possible conection being that the propioter of the mentioned arch grandfarther could of been Aaron Kozminski,s cousin. Now put yourself in my shoes, you find an old bent up knife wraped up in a rotten cloth when your a kid and twentyfive years later you find out there was a knife with the same discription found at the times of the murders, what would you think or do? open to all sugestions, within limits,will try to place picture of knife on forum,thanks for reading, all the best, live and let live.

[Raoul's Obsession]

Hi Niko,

welcome to the boards
Casebook describes the finding of the knife thus:

"Resident of 67 'Plummer's Road' (probably Plumber's Row) who was employed at a coconut warehouse. He was returning home from seeing friends at 16 Bath Gardens, Brady Street in the early hours of 1st October 1888, when at about 12.30am he passed No. 253 Whitechapel Road (a laundry business belonging to Mr Christmas) and noticed a knife lying on the bottom of two steps that led to the front door. A bloodstained handkerchief was folded and twisted round the handle and the blade was 9 to 10ins long."

This puts the blade at 9 - 10 inches rather than the 12 you have on your knife. Furthermore, we have no photo of this knife (though my mind recalls a photo of a similar knife doing the rounds and appearing in various publications, I don't think it's the one found by Coram. I'm sure I'll be corrected on that by someone more knowledgable if I'm wrong). Basically, with no photo, how can we ever say that your knife and Coram's knife (which in all likelihood wasn't the knife used by Jack: according to Dr's Phillips & Blackwell) are one and the same.

I would say there are probably many buried knives lying around the metropolis; claiming that this one is 'the' one, is a bit of a stretch, me thinks.

regards

Raoul

[lynn cates]

Kosminski

Hello Niko. Welcome to the boards.

I was curious regarding your comment about Aaron Kosminski being a suspect at the time of the murders. According to the best available information, he was not suspected until some time later--possibly as late as 1891.

The medical examiners were not too keen on the Coram knife as being implicated in Liz's death. Do you think that, perhaps they were mistaken?

Cheers.
LC

[niko]

reply to Raoul,

Hi Niko,

welcome to the boards
Casebook describes the finding of the knife thus:

"Resident of 67 'Plummer's Road' (probably Plumber's Row) who was employed at a coconut warehouse. He was returning home from seeing friends at 16 Bath Gardens, Brady Street in the early hours of 1st October 1888, when at about 12.30am he passed No. 253 Whitechapel Road (a laundry business belonging to Mr Christmas) and noticed a knife lying on the bottom of two steps that led to the front door. A bloodstained handkerchief was folded and twisted round the handle and the blade was 9 to 10ins long."

This puts the blade at 9 - 10 inches rather than the 12 you have on your knife. Furthermore, we have no photo of this knife (though my mind recalls a photo of a similar knife doing the rounds and appearing in various publications, I don't think it's the one found by Coram. I'm sure I'll be corrected on that by someone more knowledgable if I'm wrong). Basically, with no photo, how can we ever say that your knife and Coram's knife (which in all likelihood wasn't the knife used by Jack: according to Dr's Phillips & Blackwell) are one and the same.

I would say there are probably many buried knives lying around the metropolis; claiming that this one is 'the' one, is a bit of a stretch, me thinks.

regards

Raoul

Hi Raoul, this are the exact measurements of the knife i have. The total length of the knife is 44cm=17.32inches, the blade is 30cm=11.8 long and the wooden handle is 14cm=6inches long, i measured it with a tapemesure. Ive also read about the 9 or 10 inches, thats a difference of about 2.5cm, did they mesure the knife, or did they measure it by sight, if that was the case they could of also of said about 10 or 11 inches. I have a copy of the Illustrated Police News of Saturday, October the 1st. On the front page there is an ilustration of a man picking up a knife, it says as follows, finding a blood-stained knife, Whitechapel, knife 12 inches long, did they mean the blade or the whole knife, remember a biggish knife the handle must be around 5 or 6 inches long. what stranges me about the newspaper is that in the whole newspaper there is no writen article about the finding of the knife, the rest of the newspaper illustrations all have somthing writen in the paper, except the knife ( strange ). Just occured to me whilst looking at the Police Illustrated ews beside me. If Thomas Coram found the knife on October the 1st, why did it take 19 days to print it in the newspaper? i supose theres a logical answer as always, maybe the newspaper came out every foortnight.Tried to post photo but no luck. Does anyone know if this forum has an email which i can send a picture of the knife for all to view, all the best.

[niko]

Hello Niko. Welcome to the boards.

I was curious regarding your comment about Aaron Kosminski being a suspect at the time of the murders. According to the best available information, he was not suspected until some time later--possibly as late as 1891.

The medical examiners were not too keen on the Coram knife as being implicated in Liz's death. Do you think that, perhaps they were mistaken?

Cheers.
LC

Hi LC, i some were read that the medical examiners or forensic said it must be a large strong knife, or somthing like that, about if the medical examiners were mistaken, what can i say, i try to do my work good, and on doing this i sometimes make mistakes, all the best.

[robhouse]

Hi Niko,

When you post a reply here on the forum, just look down underneath the text box... where it says "Additional Options" and click the button that says "Manage Attachments".

Then, in the popup window click the "Choose File" button and select an image from your computer. If you want to select more than one image just click the next "Choose File" button. Then after you have selected your images (jpg or whatever) click "Upload". After that you can just close the window and post the reply, and the image will appear in the message.

Rob H

[Monty]

Ok, I'll bite.....

......Where was this arch?

Monty

[Errata]

I think it is unlikely that the knife was buried for more than 20 years. Most of London including the East End has incredibly corrosive soil. Anything that doesn't predate industrialization tends to get eaten very quickly. Certainly a wooden handle would not survive much more than 20 years, and blades almost never last more than 50 years. If you were able to straighten the blade and grind it without it either snapping or crumbling, it probably only dates back to the seventies.

[niko]

reply to Monty.

Ok, I'll bite.....

......Where was this arch?

Monty

HI, the arch is in what before was called lower Chapman Street, five minutes walkung distance from the Berner club on BernerStreet.

[niko]

the arch floor.

I think it is unlikely that the knife was buried for more than 20 years. Most of London including the East End has incredibly corrosive soil. Anything that doesn't predate industrialization tends to get eaten very quickly. Certainly a wooden handle would not survive much more than 20 years, and blades almost never last more than 50 years. If you were able to straighten the blade and grind it without it either snapping or crumbling, it probably only dates back to the seventies.

Hi, i found the knife in the early 8os, i disagree with you about the corrosion of the metal, dueing that the arch floor was covered by the roof of the arch , this preventing the weather afecting the knife or soil or earth, i do agree about the wooden handle rotting, but i think the wood is of high class ( noble wood). When i worked in the arch it was a London cab garage, and i heard that in the olden days this row of arches were stables, the arch floor did not have cement nor concrete, the arch floor was composed of layer of earth grit and grease, this last mentioned i belive helped the conservation of the knife, i have also heard of farmers finding medevil swords in there fields, the only thing is i dont know the conditions of the swords found, all the best.

[Monty]

Yes Niko,

Its Cable Street way.

You must admit, your story requires some leaps of faith.

Monty

[niko]

reply monty.

Yes Niko,

Its Cable Street way.

You must admit, your story requires some leaps of faith.

Monty

Hello, paralel with cable st, in the olden days the entrances, were facing Cable Street but now the entrances are from Chapman Street. Apart from lorry fulls of faith and intuition, lack facts. my belief is that someone knew about the knife being there, but not exactly where, ok Monty all the best.

[Archaic]

Hi Niko.

Welcome to Casebook, and thanks for posting the photo.

That certainly is a large knife; the wide blade is almost of the meat-cleaver type.

Though we don't know what kind of blade the Ripper used, a double-edged Liston-type surgical knife is a good possibility. They have extremely sharp straight blades that often taper at the end.

There's probably no way after all these years to tie your knife to any particular individual, let alone to Jack the Ripper,
but there's always at least the possibility that your knife was used in some kind of crime and that's why it was buried.

Are there any marks (symbols) or signatures anywhere on your knife? More modern blades have maker's marks and also might be stamped "stainless steel". Older blades often have marks too but they will be different.

If you want to find out more about your knife, such as what era it might be from and what its original use was, you could take a number of good photos and then check with some antiques dealers who specialize in knives. You can also google "antique knife collectors" and some helpful info should pop up.
(I wouldn't suggest carrying a blade that size around with you when you make your initial inquiries. )

Good luck,
Archaic

[Errata]

Hi, i found the knife in the early 8os, i disagree with you about the corrosion of the metal, dueing that the arch floor was covered by the roof of the arch , this preventing the weather afecting the knife or soil or earth, i do agree about the wooden handle rotting, but i think the wood is of high class ( noble wood). When i worked in the arch it was a London cab garage, and i heard that in the olden days this row of arches were stables, the arch floor did not have cement nor concrete, the arch floor was composed of layer of earth grit and grease, this last mentioned i belive helped the conservation of the knife, i have also heard of farmers finding medevil swords in there fields, the only thing is i dont know the conditions of the swords found, all the best.

Well Niko, in a cosmic sense, anything is possible. But just to give you an idea about how weapons make it to museums and such:

Anything buried is inherently protected from the direct effect of the elements. Of course water seeps into the soil after rain, even soil under a bridge or railway. The problem with the soil in London is that it tends to be very wet and highly acidic. Especially within a couple of miles of the Thames. It is the worst possible place to try and find an intact weapon that predates the sixties. Not only is that where most of the pollutants from the industrial revolution tend to be, but it is where the pollution from the Thames gets deposited. North London does better, because it has clay soil which protects the metal and the wood in an almost waterproof environment. Chalk soil can also yield some finds because it tends to stay relatively dry.

Soil stratifies the way rock does. Rock strata indicate geological age, soil strata indicates historical age. Any weapon that was buried prior to the industrial revolution has a much better shot at surviving. The greatest weapons finds that we have made have predated the 19th century, and have been in clay deposits. Farmers who find swords in their fields have typically been digging well below the topsoil layers, disturbing earth from several hundred years ago. And the best metal finds have always come from having been buried in something. Even if the container rots away (like at Sutton Hoo) the negative space tends to be preserved, leaving essentially a wine cave for metal. Also single metal weapons wear better than alloys.

[Errata]

HI, the arch is in what before was called lower Chapman Street, five minutes walkung distance from the Berner club on BernerStreet.

That knife? I've never seen that handle type until after WWII. Before that handles were pretty much straight from the blade to the butt. Even then you don't see a dual material handle like that til the 60s.