RIC in Millers court?

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

What's drippingly sarcastic about a "so-called double-event"?

If memory serves me correctly one of the doctors on the spot did not believe the two murders were by the same hand.

Was he also being drippingly sarcastic?

Regards,

Simon

[Roy Corduroy]

Simon, I am sorry if I mischaracterized your post in any way. Please accept my apologies.

Roy

[Simon Wood]

Hi Roy,

Thank you. Much appreciated. You're most gracious.

Regards,

Simon

[curious]

I can't think of any reason they would agree to be interviewed, Mary had been living an immoral life. Social standards were to be observed, they would very likely request privacy through the police.

Regards, Jon S.

Exactly, Jon,

But even then, the reporters would likely have made a story of that


so-and-so, reputed to be the father of the deceased, has requested privacy for his family during this difficult time, etc.

Then there might have been a description of the man/woman. Whether that person was said by people who knew MJK to greatly resemble the poor deceased, etc.

A story can be made of a refusal of an interview.

It is my guess that a member of the press attending the funeral could have described in some detail family members as to gender, age, appearance, etc.

The press was all over this story.

The fact that there are not details of her family attending points to there not being known family members in attendance.

curious

[Roy Corduroy]

Back to the actual subject, here's all I'm saying. Let's asume the Royal Irish Constublary and the Post Office were in fact at Mllers Court investigating. That's a good thing. It shows the authorities were being proactive and liasing between law enforcement agencies. Looking at the crime from various angles. Pulling out all the stops.

If we don't know the exact nature of their inquiry, it's our problem isn't it. Not theirs. And that in and of itself does not make it something bad. Lynn, you teach college, isn't that called assumptive assumptive negativity.

Roy

[richardnunweek]

Hi Curious,
We have a specific number of mourners 8.
Six women who apparently was was made up of inquest witnesses, and two men, one of them being Barnett.
If we take the women as
Mrs Cox.
Maria Harvey
Lizzie Prater.
Mrs Lewis
Caroline Maxwell?
Mrs McCarthy[ representing the landlord]
We then have to identify the other male.
We have a sketch which depicts the 6 females , and the two males at the grave site, so that is confirmed .
So we can speculate who the other male is.
Dan Barnett[ Joseph's brother] or John
Joe Fleming
George Hutchinson
A male relative[ brother]
The most likely would be Dan or John Barnett, as supporters for Joseph.
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

R I C

Hello Roy. Thanks.

In any event, I don't see their presence at Miller's Court as something "bad."

To my mind, a plausible explanation is that "MJK" was recognised for whom she was, and so in popped the RIC. If they were able to verify, then there likely was a tacit agreement NOT to talk about the incident insofar as others might have been endangered. Actually, that is the VERY thinking behind the suppression of the Special Branch ledgers today.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Hi All,

Don't let's forget Mrs Elizabeth Phoenix.

Regards,

Simon

And don't lets forget that Mary Kelly (if indeed this Kelly is the murder victim) told Mr's Phoenix that she was Welsh initially, later telling her she was Irish.

Regards Observer

[jerryd]

Hello Debs. Thanks.

I read one story (sadly, can't find it, but will keep trying) in which the RIC chap claimed he might have some knowledge of the affair.

Security breach? Very likely. I try to imagine how such could happen. Perhaps a reporter blurting, "Do you know about this?" "Mmm, possibly." Something of that sort.

Whatever the breach, I daresay it was rectified by the truncated inquest and its paucity of information.

Cheers.
LC

Evening News 8 Oct, 1888

DISGUISED AS A FEMALE DECOY.

A well known journalist and ex Parliamentary reporter, and formerly editor of an East end paper, living in South London, started as a female decoy from Peckham shortly before midnight on Saturday for Whitechapel, believing, in common with most others, that the early hours of yesterday morning would see the commital of another murder. After a peculiar experience he got as far as St. George's Church in the Borough, where some women came up and asseverated that he was a man, while a cabman offered to bet "A pound to a shilling on it." He thought that, under these circumstances, the best policy to pursue was to walk over to Southwark Police station, inviting the cabman and some others to accompany him. At the station, where he was well known, the incident came to an end. It is understood that the gentleman in question depended solely for his safety upon an ounce of chemicals.

An ex parliamentary reporter and former newspaper editor sneaking around Whitechapel in the wee hours might have a tendency to blurt out information.

jerryd

[Wickerman]

Exactly, Jon,

But even then, the reporters would likely have made a story of that

If the reporter couldn't get to talk to them then they had nothing to report. Figures on a landscape, just faces in a crowd, among hundreds at the funeral. And besides, the cemetery gates were guarded, if I recall correctly.
The press wouldn't have even known if any family members were present.

It isn't just a case of a reporter writing something, the story must be accepted by the editor, if he doesn't think it worthy it does not get printed.

Regards, Jon S.

[curious]

Hi Curious,
We have a specific number of mourners 8.
Six women who apparently was was made up of inquest witnesses, and two men, one of them being Barnett.
If we take the women as
Mrs Cox.
Maria Harvey
Lizzie Prater.
Mrs Lewis
Caroline Maxwell?
Mrs McCarthy[ representing the landlord]
We then have to identify the other male.
We have a sketch which depicts the 6 females , and the two males at the grave site, so that is confirmed .
So we can speculate who the other male is.
Dan Barnett[ Joseph's brother] or John
Joe Fleming
George Hutchinson
A male relative[ brother]
The most likely would be Dan or John Barnett, as supporters for Joseph.
Regards Richard.

Hi, Richard,
Thanks for the reminder of just the 8. I was speaking more generally about newspaper stories when I should have stuck more closely to the discussion at hand.

I suppose some of her family could have been in the mob and no one would have known the difference.

If the reporter couldn't get to talk to them then they had nothing to report. Figures on a landscape, just faces in a crowd, among hundreds at the funeral. And besides, the cemetery gates were guarded, if I recall correctly.
The press wouldn't have even known if any family members were present.

It isn't just a case of a reporter writing something, the story must be accepted by the editor, if he doesn't think it worthy it does not get printed.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi, Jon,
Actually, the difference may be small town, where I live and where we know and have access to all the officials, and large town, where I'm guessing the reporters might have to scramble to get a quote or a word from an official.

However, I disagree with your take: "It isn't just a case of a reporter writing something, the story must be accepted by the editor, if he doesn't think it worthy it does not get printed."

In a story this big that would sell enormous numbers of papers, the editor would be coming up with any angle he could think of and sending reporters out to get the story -- or multiple stories. In that day before telephones, the reporters had to physically chase the stories down.

And it is a story when someone declines to comment, or when the family has requested privacy. Not nearly as good a story as would be produced by talking to someone, but could still find space to let the readers know the paper had thought of that angle and tried.

In my world, enterprising reporters would be camped out at the police station, down on Dorset Street, or buying cops drinks to try to get a nugget or two of information.

Anyway, I feel sure there is a very big difference when you're the only game in town -- as my little paper is -- and when you're competing with a dozen or so other papers in a city the size of London.

But IF there was any member of MJK's family in town, I'm surprised some reporter did not ferret it out.

curious

[lynn cates]

editor

Hello Jerry. Thanks. Well put.

Do we know whom the editor was?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Regarding Marys possible Welsh background,.....I dont believe that Wales was in the process of planning and executing disturbances in London to draw attention to their desire to be self governing, so the RIC attending that site may well be indicative that they knew something about Mary that we have been unable to prove..that she was indeed Irish.

Cheers.

[Wickerman]

However, I disagree with your take: "It isn't just a case of a reporter writing something, the story must be accepted by the editor, if he doesn't think it worthy it does not get printed."

In a story this big that would sell enormous numbers of papers, the editor would be coming up with any angle he could think of and sending reporters out to get the story -- or multiple stories.

But what story?
First of all, no-one announced any members of the family were expected. No-one knew what they would look like if anyone turned up. Among throngs of people how does any reporter assume this or that strange face (among hundreds of strange faces) might be relatives of the deceased?

There is no story to cover, and the proof lies in the pudding, which is why we have no reports of any family in attendance.

Regards, Jon S.

[The Station Cat]

Hi all
I recall reading in an edition of Ripperana about 97/98 a report mentioning officers of the RIC being present in the aftermath at Millers Court.
Can anyone else shed any more light on this?
I'm not sure now whether it was written by Nick Warren or another contributor but interesting none the less.

During the Fenian dynamite war 1881-1885 50 RIC officers where loaned to the Metropolitan Police by Dublin Castle. With several other RIC officers operating elsewhere in the UK. Given Kelly's possible Irish heritage it is not unlikely that some sort of covert operation was being conducted by Special Branch encompassing RIC officers?