The Missing Policemen

[tnb]

Thanks for the tip Don - I will definitely seek that article out, as I seem to have been led astray somewhat - I was under the impression that the 1887 incident was a fire, and that the stampede followed in 1888. I stand corrected.

[lynn cates]

inflammation

Hello Don.

"Why Adler would be suspected of suborning a malicious cry of Fire! escapes me, by the way."

Actually, it was a mere suspicion by the socialist Jews that this was a put up job--done by the rabbis.

You might have a look at Fishman's "East End Jewish Radicals--1875-1914" for the story. (pp. 156 & 7)

For my part, I don't think Dr. Adler--or any other orthodox rabbi, for that matter--would do this. However, there was the case of Louise Michel who seems to have been assaulted by a zealot who was incited by a rabbi.

The power of inflammatory speech, eh?

Cheers.
LC

[Johnr]

Abberline was everywhere...(You don't suppose...JTR?)...No...

Thanks for that Simon and tnb,

I have followed with great interest the Special Branch registers discussion, and have been lucky enough to have been sent detective McIntyre's press articles to read by a Casebook poster.

I have Butterworth's book, and I have read other Special branch detectives yarns too.

One thing I noticed, was the clever tactic of covering their investigation or surveillance of a suspect house, by claiming to suspicious landlords that they were actually investigating some other matter.
For instance, MEPO detectives told householders in a targetted street, that they were investigating sweat-shop employers in a district of the East End. They were actually investigating a JTR suspect.(Someone on these boards will recall the exact case and the source).

My point is, I wonder if the fusion, nay, the confusion of JTR and Anarchist/Fenian bomb-thrower investigations, might stem from 'tecs telling bystanders they were investigating a JTR suspect - in Mitre Square, for instance) when they were actually spying on incendiary-device-hurlers?

And lastly, a question: I know the Stride murder occurred next to a Jewish political club. Was there an anarchists club in or near Berners Street too?
And wasn't there one near Mitre Square? Hmmm...

JOHN RUFFELS.

[lynn cates]

Abberline

Hello John. Abberline seems to be a super cop. I have a folder of his clippings on my hard drive--some of it goes back to '72 or '73 when he was a serjeant.

Let me know if you are interested (email) and I can forward these to you.

The Berner st club was primarily anarchist since they seem to have largely supplanted the social democrats.

Cheers.
LC

[Monty]

John,

If bobbies on obs had to lie to 'bystanders' as to why they are there then they surely are pretty rubbish at their jobs....as theyve been rumbled.

However I see your point. We did something similar when visiting sweatshops. We stated we were on a courtesy call, in reality I was assessing the place with regards a future raid.

Though, I must say, I dont think they would have claimed they were on the hunt for Jack. That wouldnt have been wise.

I welcome this hunt for the ledgers, any path is worth walking. However I do feel some are getting a tad overexcited over what could be something or nothing.

Rather than answering questions, I worry this may be the cradle of more misleading and falsity.

Two sides to the coin huh?

Monty

[Chris]

Trevor has not yet had sight of all 30,000 unredacted entries in the ledgers, so an early 0.003% success rate isn't too shabby.

Any thoughts yet on the missing Scotland Yard detectives?

On the first point, I'm still not quite clear what that statement about three suspects is based on. Is that the total number of entries in which the phrase "Whitechapel Murders" appears? If so, and if they have been consistent about the "redaction," then I don't really see how other entries are going to be linked to the case, even if they can be seen in full - unless of course they mention people we already know about from other sources.

On the "missing detectives," I'm afraid I don't really have any great insight, except that I wonder how many of the routine day-to-day reports were retained permanently in the first place. We know from Swanson's report of 19 October that a large number of people ("upwards of 300") were being investigated. Presumably most of the paperwork would have been disposed of at some point, rather than being preserved indefinitely (and the same goes for the records of the house-to-house inquiry).

I also find it difficult to reconcile the idea of the Met CID reporting directly to Littlechild and Monro, with Warren's instructions regarding Swanson - "every paper, every document, every report every telegram must pass through his hands ..."

[Johnr]

Are we getting our hopes up like the release of MEPO files in 1992?

Thanks very much for the offer Lynn,
I am pleased you have gone into Abberline's career so thoroughly. Why not do a book on him? He would be worth one I think.

Monty,
Pleased to receive your observations.Thanks
And, yes, I agree, getting our hopes up about the possible JTR clues in the MEPOSB ledgers might be akin to the heightened expectations of JTR spectators for the envisaged release of police files on JTR in 1992.

Then it was a fizzer.

But the main point of my last post was to say there is much common ground in Fenian/anarchist investigations and the East End murders of 1888.

JOHN RUFFELS.

[Monty]

Chris,

I have recently spoken to a former PC who joined the force way back, was Stationed at Bethnal Green originally and spent a brief time at Commercial Street.

He recalled how the loft at Commercial Street station was opened and bundles of witness statement and report were found. A couple of these 'bundles' pertained to the Ripper investigation of 1888, he estimated the bundles to hold thousands of docs.

The result? The powers that be stated they were of no interest to the force and ordered their destruction. They were incinerated the next day.

The chap I spoke with said he and his colleagues held no great interest in the murders so did not protest. They were just happy to get rid of what they saw as clutter.

There was no sinister reason for the destruction, it was simply down to clearing space.

Monty

[richardnunweek]

Hello Monty.
What a absolute waste..just imagine the little 'gems' that could have been lurking in those bundles, if nothing else what keepsakes.
Regards Richard.

[mariab]

lost files and redacted ledgers

I can imagine what Monty describes having happened more than once. What a loss for Ripperologists!

Lynn Cates wrote: And if you can figure out who the devil the murdered Doughty was and the identities of "John and Catherine Kelly," we'd all be much obliged.
It's been established lately that it doesn't say “Doughty“, it probably says “Dovertly“, which could be a misspelled “Doherty“. Although I haven't seen any other misspellings (that I'd know of) on that specific page of the ledgers.Or can it be a “redacted“ Doherty?!?!

Chris wrote:
On the first point, I'm still not quite clear what that statement about three suspects is based on. Is that the total number of entries in which the phrase "Whitechapel Murders" appears? If so, and if they have been consistent about the "redaction," then I don't really see how other entries are going to be linked to the case, even if they can be seen in full - unless of course they mention people we already know about from other sources.
I've been wondering a lot about this myself. Trevor Marriot is far too cryptic and disorganized when presenting information, in the most frustrating fashion. As for identifying the entries after their redaction, Mr. Marriot is supposedly trying to have the redaction moved away, but even with the redaction, I can imagine us being able to figure it out from the context. Clutterbuck was not well-informed about the Ripper case, and he might have missed things.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

I wonder why all those witness statements and reports found in the loft at Commercial Street police station hadn't been sent to Swanson at Scotland Yard. " . . . every paper, every document, every report every telegram must pass through his hands . . ."

Regards,

Simon

[robhouse]

Monty said: "However I do feel some are getting a tad overexcited over what could be something or nothing."

I tend to agree...

Johnr: "For instance, MEPO detectives told householders in a targetted street, that they were investigating sweat-shop employers in a district of the East End. They were actually investigating a JTR suspect.(Someone on these boards will recall the exact case and the source)."

This was Henry Cox, who reported conducting surveillance on what was apparently a tailor's workshop, in a largely Jewish street. According to Cox, "We told them we were factory inspectors looking for tailors and capmakers who employed boys and girls under age, and pointing out the evils accruing from the sweaters’ system asked them to co-operate with us in destroying it."

"I know the Stride murder occurred next to a Jewish political club. Was there an anarchists club in or near Berners Street too?
And wasn't there one near Mitre Square? "

The IWEC was of course a club of socialists and anarchists. I am not sure about Mitre Square. There was supposedly a coffee shop at the south end of Greenfield Street that was a sort of hang out for anarchists.

Rob H

[Monty]

Hi Monty,

I wonder why all those witness statements and reports found in the loft at Commercial Street police station hadn't been sent to Swanson at Scotland Yard. " . . . every paper, every document, every report every telegram must pass through his hands . . ."

Regards,

Simon

Mountains and Mohammed Simon,

Whose to say Swanson didnt view these. However I feel he would have been aided in such a task and that phrase was more metophoric.

Monty

[Debra A]

Lynn Cates wrote: And if you can figure out who the devil the murdered Doughty was and the identities of "John and Catherine Kelly," we'd all be much obliged.
It's been established lately that it doesn't say “Doughty“, it probably says “Dovertly“, which could be a misspelled “Doherty“. Although I haven't seen any other misspellings (that I'd know of) on that specific page of the ledgers.Or can it be a “redacted“ Doherty?!?!

Hi Maria,
Where/when was it established that the entry says Dovertly?
The person who viewed and photographed this section of the ledgers transcribed the name as Doughty. This same person also thought it said McDoughty and not Mr Doughty.

While looking at the case of Peter Doherty, I did notice that in a couple of newspapers his name was spelt Dougherty.

I thought the spelling Kelleyey, further down the page looked a bit dodgy myself...if that's what it says.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Maria,

If it's a Special Branch file, surely the entry should read "Covertly".

Regards,

Simon