Why did Watkins leave Eddowes body?

[Jenny]

Something has been troubling me about the Mitre Sq. murder and I am not sure if it is meaningful of pasting on the message board but I guess someone will let me know if I am off base.

The thing is this: PC Watkins shines his light into the corner of the square about 1:45 am and with the aid of his lamp discovers the disembowelled Eddowes. Immediately, what does he do? Inspect the rest of the square? Take of in purusit in one direction at least? No, he leaves the scene.

He knows that there is a night watchman in the warehouse of Kearle and Tonge and it is to this direction he hurries. What is he expecting George Morris, the watchman to do? Was it sheer panic and horror which led Watkins to the warehouses? Did he need something to steady his neves? We have heard that the police offer said"ForGod's sake, mate, come to my assistance!"

Why didn't he blow whistle? What could do but share the awefu scene with the policemen? To my way of thinkig. that would be my first action

COMMENTS??

[The Grave Maurice]

Jenny,

There are people around here who know a lot more about the police practices of the time, but it's late and I'm the only one around, so I'll have a crack at it. I believe it was standard procedure that, should an officer discover a body, he was to remain with it until aid arrived. Watkins knew that Morris was in the warehouse, so Watkins fetched him and sent him off into Aldgate in search of another copper while Watkins himself stayed with the body. Paul Begg, among others, says that Morris had his own whistle. If so, Watkins probably knew about that, too. And he didn't actually "leave the scene". If you've been to Mitre Square, you'll remember that it's only a few metres from the corner where Eddowes was found to the former site of Kearley and Tonge's. Watkins went to the nearest place possible to find assistance. I suppose PC Pearce in No 3 was actually closer and Watkins could have knocked him up, but Morris was a better choice since he was already (most likely) awake.

[Monty]

Jenny,

As GM states, it was procedure.

Nightwatchmen were often called upon to aid Constables when required. Morris, the Nightwatchman concerned, was an ex Met PC, did indeed have his own whistle (he stated this at the inquest) and was already up and mobile.

The distance from the corner to Morris's ajar door was around ten paces, nothing more.

As Watkins had no idea which direction to go in (Halse and co later covered that by spreading out in pursuit minutes later) therefore his job was to secure the scene whilst Morris called for assistance, which he knew would be found in Aldgate as it was heavily patrolled.

As not for calling Pearce. This for me is an issue. However we are not sure when Pearce moved into what seems to be a Police house and my own assumption is simply this, Watkins and Morris were unaware Pearce lived there.

Monty

[Monty]

PS

I forgot to mention, City Police Constables, which Watkins was one, were not issued with whistles till the following year.

Watkins couldnt blow his whistle....he didnt have one.

Cheers
Monty

[BillyE]

Just a thought: even if Watkins had blown his whistle (which apparently he didn't have) the sound would have likely echoed around the square, and not gone anywhere else. It would likely have been too faint to have been heard by any other constible.

[Dr. John Watson]

Hello Jenny and welcome to the boards. You have raised an excellent point here. I have puzzled for years over the actions of Watkins after discovering the body of Eddowes, as well as the timing of his last visit to the square and his subsequent discovery of the body. In my mind, taking all things into consideration, I believe Watkins rounded the corner of the square and came face to face with Jack the Ripper in the act of cutting up Eddowes. Watkins would undoubtedly have been shocked and likely frightened out of his wits. Armed only with a truncheon, his understandably human response would be to distance himself from danger as quickly as possible, which is what I believe he did. Before reaching the safety of the open warehouse door, he likely looked over his shoulder and found Jack had fled. His official version after that point is probably accurate. To answer your question: He didn't blow his whistle because he was too busy running for his life. If this is what really happened, Watkins would be the only person known to have actually seen Jack the Ripper.

[Monty]

Does anyone possess a brick wall?

I would like to bang my head against it.

Monty

[Scott Nelson]

... I believe Watkins rounded the corner of the square and came face to face with Jack the Ripper in the act of cutting up Eddowes. Watkins would undoubtedly have been shocked and likely frightened out of his wits....Before reaching the safety of the open warehouse door, he likely looked over his shoulder and found Jack had fled.

Yes, yes it's all very clear now. Any police officer who had sex while on duty could undoubtedly lie about encountering the Ripper. And... without a whistle too.

[Dr. John Watson]

I forgot to mention, City Police Constables, which Watkins was one, were not issued with whistles till the following year.

Watkins couldnt blow his whistle....he didnt have one.

Cheers
Monty

Not true, Monty. Police whistles were first issued to Metropolitan PCs in 1884 and to City constables in 1886. Matter of fact, a City Police whistle dated 1887 was recently offered on Ebay. So certainly PC Watkins had a whistle.

And BillyE, those early whistles had been tested and could be heard for a good mile. Granted, the buildings in the square might have limited that distance somewhat, but Watkins had only to take a few steps to Mitre St where he would certainly have been heard by the numerous PCs in the area.

[Dr. John Watson]

Jenny:

You're questions about Watkins are valid, so don't be put off by those who mistakenly present theories as facts. The fact is, if you rely only on the known evidence, it's not only possible, but likely that Watkins encountered the Ripper in Mitre Square. If you track the positions of the two PCs who patroled the square - Watkins and Harvey - and note the times they checked the square, then compare that with the time Eddowes and the Ripper were seen by Lawende and his two friends, and the time Watkins said he discovered Eddowes, you almost have to conclude Watkins and the Ripper were there - in the square - at the same time. In addition, two police officials later wrote of a "City PC" in Mitre Court who actually saw the Ripper. The constable was not identified by name, and most of the records from that time were destroyed in the war. Taking the reports of these two officials at face value, you'd have to conclude they were speaking of Watkins. Those who defend Watkins will argue the writers were referring to the Metropolitan PC who saw a suspicious man with Stride in Berner Street and simply confused him with a City PC. That's possible, I guess, but there is not a bit of evidence to support it.

[Rob Clack]

Part of P.C Watkins Inquest testimony:

By the Jury. - He did not sound a whistle, because they did not carry whistles. The watchman did whistle. Witness's beat was a single beat; no other policeman entered Mitre-square.

Rob

[The Good Michael]

Rob and Monty and GM,

Good info as always. If I'm not mistaken, Morris, being an ex-copper and Watkins were well-acquainted and even shared tea at the warehouse on this evening. Or I'm getting my Tonges mixed up.

Mike

[Monty]

Not true, Monty. Police whistles were first issued to Metropolitan PCs in 1884 and to City constables in 1886. Matter of fact, a City Police whistle dated 1887 was recently offered on Ebay. So certainly PC Watkins had a whistle.

And BillyE, those early whistles had been tested and could be heard for a good mile. Granted, the buildings in the square might have limited that distance somewhat, but Watkins had only to take a few steps to Mitre St where he would certainly have been heard by the numerous PCs in the area.

Jeeze,

10 years of study out of the window....ooop, apparently not.

Part of P.C Watkins Inquest testimony:

By the Jury. - He did not sound a whistle, because they did not carry whistles. The watchman did whistle.

Cheers Rob, I didnt know that !


The City of London Beat BEAT constables were not issued with whistles as standard in 1888.

Watkins himself testifies to this. Unless you are stating he was lying about that also.


Mike,

Yes, the two were well aquainted. They stated that they often spoke to each other and I believe Morris refers to a PC in the Birke incident, who I feel is most likely Watkins.

Regards
Monty

[Dr. John Watson]

The City of London Beat BEAT constables were not issued with whistles as standard in 1888 . . . Watkins himself testifies to this. Unless you are stating he was lying about that also.

Regards
Monty

Sorry old man, but if you're basing your whole case on a newspaper report of Watkins' inquest testimony, you're relying solely on hearsay. I don't know (and neither do you) whether the newspaper quoted Watkins' inquest testimony in its entirety, correctly and verbatim, or whether the officer simply misstated the facts to explain why he didn't blow his whistle. In any case, it doesn't amount to real evidence. Now, you ignored my mention of an actual 1887 City of London police whistle being auctioned (which would be real evidence), so I found the auction site and I'm reprinting the information verbatim below. Then, a little further research revealed a very interesting site devoted to the City of London Police, and I'm posting the relevent facts from that site below. You can check them out youself on the web.

[Dr. John Watson]

This was found at http://www.worthpoint.com

Sold Date: 12/12/2006
Channel: Online Auction
Source: eBay
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