Long, P.C. Alfred (recovered)

[Ash]

chris27th June 2006, 08:27 AM
Here are details of Alfred Long, who found Eddowes's apron in the doorway in Goulston Street. The entries for 1891 are odd:
1) Long himself is listed as a patient at King College Hospital but
2) His wife, Elizabeth, is listed as Widowed but by 1901 they and the family are back together!

Alfred Long
His birth was registered in Quarter 2 of 1862 at Ware, Hertfordshire
1861:
Park Road, Ware, Hertfordshire
Head: William Long aged 43 born Ware - General labourer
Wife: Mary Ann Long aged 41 born Waterford
Children:
William aged 17 - Maltmaker
James aged 15 - Maltmaker's boy
Ann aged 13 - Servant
Joseph aged 11
Samuel aged 9
Sarah aged 7
Thomas aged 5
Walter aged 3
Charles aged 1

1871:
Park Road, Ware, Hertfordshire
Head: William Long aged 53 born Ware - Farm labourer
Wife: Mary Ann Long aged 51 born Bengeo
Children:
James aged 25 - Bargeman
Joseph aged 21 - Maltmaker
Samuel aged 19 - Labourer
Thomas aged 15
Walter aged 13
Charles aged 11
Alfred aged 9
All sons born in Ware

1881:
Park Road, Ware, Hertfordshire
Head: William Long aged 64 born Ware - General labourer
Wife: Mary Ann Long aged 61 born Bengeo
Children:
Walter aged 24
Charles aged 22
Alfred aged 19
All sons listed a general labourers and born in Ware

1891
District Kings College Hospital, St Clement Danes, London
Patient:
Alfred Long aged 29 (Married) born Ware Herts. - Policeman
His family are listed as follows:
60 Duncan Buildings, Verulam Street, St Andrew Holborn
Head: Elizabeth Long aged 26 born Herts (NB: She is listed as widowed)
Children:
Elizabeth aged 3
Alfred aged 2
George A aged 4 months
All born in London

1901:
33 Thrush Street, Newington, London
Head: Alfred Long aged 39 born Ware - Sergeant Met. Police
Wife: Elizabeth Long aged 36 born Puckeridge, Herts
Children:
Elizabeth R aged 13
Alfred W aged 12
Victor J aged 8
Lilian aged 6
Margaret aged 2
Beatrice aged under 1 month
First 4 born in Holborn, last 2 in Newington
Long's marriage is listed as follows:
1885 Quarter 4
Ware, Hertfordshire
Alfred Long and Elizabeth Packer
Vol 3a Page 493
Elizabeth Packer, Long's wife, was the daughter of James Packer, a wheelwright, and Charlotte Packer.
The only death so far found for an Alfred Long born in 1862 was registered in 1909 at South Stoneham, Hampshire and his age at death given as 47.

On a personal note, my sister lives in Ware and until about 3 years ago lived in Park Road, where Long was born. In fact I have stayed there many times myself. The houses certainly date from the Victorian period but sadly none of the census entries give an actual house number.
Chris

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robert27th June 2006, 09:16 AM
Chris, interesting that Long was reinstated after getting the sack in 1889. Donald Rumbelow says that officers being reinstated wasn't an unknown phenomenon, but I'd dearly like to know the details of all this.

Robert

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tom_wescott27th June 2006, 04:12 PM
Chris and Robert,

I agree! His death, resurrection, and reinstatement to the police force are fascinating to say the least. And his wife's a Packer! Probably a good story in there somewhere. Great work, Chris!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

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How Brown27th June 2006, 04:19 PM
Chris and Robert and Tom:

I specifically asked Mr.Rumbelow this question ( at the behest of Robert ) and he wasn't surprised or mystified by the question,stating that it wasn't all that unusual for the reinstatement of a former officer in those times.

He did state that it isn't so easy in our time for a similar situation to occur.

I suggest asking Grey Hunter for the modern approach to reinstatement for former officers.

Hope this helps...

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robert27th June 2006, 10:03 PM
Paul Begg has Long being dismissed for being drunk on duty and for being considered unfit for the police force. I wonder how he found his way back after that - in less than two years?

Puzzling!

Robert

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chris28th June 2006, 12:15 AM
The case notes and admission records for the period of Long's being a patient still exist for King's College Hospital. I have today mailed them to see if I can arrage for details of Long's stay
Chris

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tom_wescott28th June 2006, 02:01 AM
Paul Begg has Long being dismissed for being drunk on duty and for being considered unfit for the police force. I wonder how he found his way back after that - in less than two years?

Puzzling!

Robert

This raises the question as to the source for the information that he was dismissed and how reliable it is. Are we sure this information originated with Begg? If so, then it should be supposed reliable unless proved otherwise. What a conundrum! 118 years later and PC Long still manages to confuse and conflict with the known data!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

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robert28th June 2006, 07:39 AM
Yes, Tom, I'd assumed that Paul got the info from Long's police records at the PRO. But in that case, why would he not mention the reinstatement?

Robert

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monty28th June 2006, 10:55 AM
Robert,

I wonder how he found his way back after that - in less than two years?

Appeal ?

Dont know if there was a form of appeal process then. Or how long the process would have took if there was one.

Thinking on, he would have been suspended pending appeal wouldnt he?

Very confusing.

Monty


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robert28th June 2006, 11:13 AM
Hi Monty

Just had a quick flick through Bernard Brown's article on Sgt Kirby (Rip 46). kirby was suspended a couple of times for a day or two. He started as a Constable 3rd class, rose through the ranks to Sgt, then was demoted to Constable 1st class for improperly entering a pub. On two subsequent occasions he was found drunk, but wasn't demoted, his pay being reduced instead. He finished with a good conduct record when he voluntarily resigned from the police.

Robert

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owney28th June 2006, 11:02 PM
hi all, p.c. Long 254A had been temporarily drafted from A division, Westminister to serve in Whitechapel. There on duty in Goulston street he found the bloody apron. He made no enquiries of the tenants in the buildings and took the apron to the duty inspector in Commercial Street police station at around 3.10. He was a serving member of the city police and his record seems to be very good.

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coral10th October 2006, 07:21 AM
On Saturday at the Whitechapel Society meeting, Bernie Brown, ex-policeman & police historian, ask me to post the following on the Casebook as he does not have access to a computer:-

I recently had occasion to read the information on the Casebook with regard to P.C. Long (of Goulston St fame) which was posted on 28 June 2006.

I fear that you may be in pursuit of the wrong P C Long.

I hope you do not mind me adding to your antecedents of Long, but there is nothing worse than chasing a false trail.

As you know PC 254A Long was dismissed in July 1889. The 1891/1901 cenuses show him residing in Kennington working as a ship stoker in the docks. He was NOT reinstated.

The policeman known as PC Alfred Long (after 1889) was a 'C' division PC (St James) Warrant No 70299 who joined the Met in March 1885 and resigned March 1911 as a detective sargent on 'V'division (Wandsworth) & 'L' division (Lambeth), born in Ware in Herts. Whereas PC 254A Long was born in Sussex but may be related.

I would be interested in the Kings College Hospital entry for Long.

I hope this infor is of use

Bernie Brown
M.P.H.S

If any one has wishes to reply to Bernie, I will pass on any messages to him.

Coral

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robert10th October 2006, 09:25 AM
Hi Coral

Please thank Bernie for that info. Yes, he's saved us chasing up a false trail.

A case of the wrong arm of the law!

Robert

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coral10th October 2006, 08:03 PM
Thanks Robert

I will pass your message on to Bernie

Coral

[PC2267]

A lot of research has clearly been done into both PC LONG's.

I'm curious to know whether any service papers for PC 254A Alfred Long of Ripper fame exist? If they do, is there any mention in them of him being seconded/transferred to H Division to assist in policing Whitechapel during the Ripper case and how long he was there for.

Likewise has anyone ever come across medals/service papers to an Officer from another Division seconded/transferred for the same reason. I'm curious to know whether this sort of thing was documented?

I know early service papers are a little vague to say the least, but later ones appear to have more detail?

There's numerous medal examples of were an Officer who was in one Division in 1887, but by 1888 had been posted to another, this is documented on there papers. But I'm unaware of any were a brief secondment to H is recorded?

[PC2267]

Alfred Long

Police Constable Alfred Long, 254A.

Witness at Catherine Eddowes' inquest.

Born c.1854. Originally a baker who had served for twelve years with the 9th Lancers (and was also awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal). Long joined the Metropolitan Police in 1884, warrant no.69841[1]. Drafted to Whitechapel from A-Division (Whitehall) as part of the effort to increase manpower on the streets of the East End during the height of the 'Ripper' scare.

PC Long discovered the portion of Eddowes' apron and the Goulston Street Graffito at Wentworth Dwellings.

Long was dismissed in July 1889 for being drunk on duty.


Has anyone looked into PC LONG's military service? I'd be very interested to know where he serviced during his service and for what he was awarded his DCM?

[drstrange169]

He definitely would have served in India and depending how long he was in the army he probably would have served in Afghanistan. The 9th were involved quite a bit of action. I haven't find any record of him in the company files but, this them in 1880. Who knows, he could even be in the picture!

[DJA]

Sarge in the front row right looks like a drinker.

Then you have the guy holding the tree up.

Bloke on the left has great boots,however his gun holster is all wrong.....Billy the Kid,for you Texans.

Nice find!

Another Oz recruit!

[PC2267]

He definitely would have served in India and depending how long he was in the army he probably would have served in Afghanistan. The 9th were involved quite a bit of action. I haven't find any record of him in the company files but, this them in 1880. Who knows, he could even be in the picture!

I thought maybe the Zulu War or Egypt? I think the citation for his DCM probably holds the answer?

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

National Archives—

WO 146 - War Office: Distinguished Conduct Medal, Submissions to Sovereign.

WO 146/1/29 — 1880 April 5th. [Regiment in India].

Regimental Serjeant Major Robert Young: 9th Lancers.

Quarter Master Serjeant Harry, Finn, alias Harry Finn Walker: 9th Lancers.

Troop Serjeant Major Henry Spittle (since deceased): 9th Lancers.

Troop Serjeant Major Henry England: 9th Lancers.

Private Henry Longheed: 9th Lancers.

Private Alfred Long alias James Short: 9th Lancers.

Private Samuel William Harsent: 9th Lancers.

Could this be our man?

Regards,

Simon

[Joshua Rogan]

I too found a reference that he enlisted as James Short, if so he was wounded in the incident at Charasiah in Afghanistan, 6th October 1879;

http://www.britishmedals.us/files/afghancas.htm

1706 Private SHORT James 9th Lancers Slight Wound Charasiah 6th October 1879 Bullet in forehead

[Rosella]

So Long took part in the Second Afghan War. His wound must have been just a graze. He was extremely lucky. I see another on the list, Quarter Master Sergeant Harry Finn, also had an alias!

[drstrange169]

Well done Simon, explains why I couldn't find a "Long" in the medal list.
Must be an interesting story in there somewhere.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The Battle of Charasiab, 6th October 1879.

http://www.britishbattles.com/second-afghan-war/charasiab.htm

Regards,

Simon

[PC2267]

Long's story just gets more interesting by the minute!!!!!! I wonder why he joined up under the alias? Are his medals known to exist? Is there a picture of him?

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The perils of research.

The Alfred Long [alias James Short] who was awarded a DCM in 1880 may not have been PC Alfred Long 245A of Goulston Street fame.

The A-Z tells us that Alfred Long joined the Metropolitan Police in 1884, having previously served 12 years in the 9th Lancers and been awarded a DCM in 1880.

This puts the commencement of his army service at 1872.

The late Chris Scott tells us that [PC] Alfred Long was born in Ware, Hertfordshire, in 1861, which means he must have joined the Army at the age of 11, when the minimum recruitment age for the 9th Lancers was 16.

Could an 11-year-old have passed himself off as 16?

But the A-Z puts Alfred Long's birth at 1855, which makes him 17 when he joined the 9th Lancers, and historian and ex-policeman Bernie Brown says PC 254A Long was born in Sussex, not Hertfordshire [no date].

Who is right?

Regards,

Simon

[Joshua Rogan]

I suspect they are two different 'Alfred Long's. I would go for the older version.

Alfred Long, 2nd son of master carpenter Henry Long and wife Fanny . Born in Sussex, South Bersted (now seems to be part of Bognor). Aged 6 in the 1861 census, so would fit with 1855 birth.

(Only second hand research I'm afraid, can any genealogists confirm?)

[Monty]

The A-Z comes from the mouth of Long himself.

Monty