PC Thain's beat

[DJA]

Having reread the various reports Thain gave at the inquest, he clearly says he passed Bucks Row every 30 mins.
The only ways that this can be so, given the distances of his full beat are:

1.He walked at a much faster pace than the standard 3mph. He would need to go at over 4mph.

2. Not every one of the internal roads was walked on every circuit of the beat. For instance on circuit one he may have checked Bath and Fosters and the surrounding roads; but not those in the northern section. While on circuit 2 that was reversed.

I wonder if anyone would care to comment on which they feel is the most likely ? Or do we think that Thain was not accurate with how long the route took him.




Steve

Reckon you nailed it with "2".

Main perimeter is roughly 2000m or 1 and a 1/4 miles. Add the odd street or three and you have variable 30 minute beats.

Neil's beat is a different kettle of fish. Lots of difficult spots,as mentioned to GUT in post #20.

[Elamarna]

Hi All,

Given their two beats, it's nothing short of serendipity that PC Thain should appear at the Brady Street end of Bucks Row at the exact moment PC Neil was flashing his bullseye lantern for assistance.

Regards,

Simon

Simon

Are you suggesting that it was not luck at all?

I ask because am aware that you have suggested before that the police officers did not give a shall we say fully accurate account at the inquest.

If you are still of that opinion can I ask what sources/evidence you use to support this idea or is it just a feeling you have?

I am trying to cover all aspects of Bucks Row, so all alternative views are of great interest to me.

All the best


Steve

[Elamarna]

Reckon you nailed it with "2".

Main perimeter is roughly 2000m or 1 and a 1/4 miles. Add the odd street or three and you have variable 30 minute beats.

Neil's beat is a different kettle of fish. Lots of difficult spots,as mentioned to GUT in post #20.

Thanks Dave.


Steve

[DJA]

Simon

Are you suggesting that it was not luck at all?

I ask because am aware that you have suggested before that the police officers did not give a shall we say fully accurate account at the inquest.

If you are still of that opinion can I ask what sources/evidence you use to support this idea or is it just a feeling you have?

I am trying to cover all aspects of Bucks Row, so all alternative views are of great interest to me.

All the best


Steve

Constable John Neil's inquest testimony is interesting. He was never far from "the spot".
There were three police thereabouts. Not one of them saw anything.

[Monty]

Thanks Monty

So a 37 minute beat would not be impossible given ALL the internal roads?

Steve

Yeah Steve.

And if that beat had warehouses, shops, pubs etc, places that required close and specific monitoring, then the beat could take longer.

What we shall never know is if these Bobbies were given special instructions during muster, such as check the gates of Browne & Eagle warehouses, hang around outside the Roebuck pub during closing as there was trouble there last night. That sorta thing.

Of course, this doesn't directly impact on Beat times, but could answer why Bobbies weren't where we expected them to be when were do our calculations today.

Monty

[Monty]

Having reread the various reports Thain gave at the inquest, he clearly says he passed Bucks Row every 30 mins.
The only ways that this can be so, given the distances of his full beat are:

1.He walked at a much faster pace than the standard 3mph. He would need to go at over 4mph.

2. Not every one of the internal roads was walked on every circuit of the beat. For instance on circuit one he may have checked Bath and Fosters and the surrounding roads; but not those in the northern section. While on circuit 2 that was reversed.

I wonder if anyone would care to comment on which they feel is the most likely ? Or do we think that Thain was not accurate with how long the route took him.




Steve

It was not unusual for a Bobby to make slight alterations to his Beat, commonly to make up lost time. Or, as seemingly with Watkins, just to throw those who may be timing the beats in order to plan a burglary.

Monty

[Elamarna]

Yeah Steve.

And if that beat had warehouses, shops, pubs etc, places that required close and specific monitoring, then the beat could take longer.

What we shall never know is if these Bobbies were given special instructions during muster, such as check the gates of Browne & Eagle warehouses, hang around outside the Roebuck pub during closing as there was trouble there last night. That sorta thing.

Of course, this doesn't directly impact on Beat times, but could answer why Bobbies weren't where we expected them to be when were do our calculations today.

Monty

Thanks Monty

What about the suggestions in post 27, any thoughts?

Again many thanks for the help


Steve

[Elamarna]

It was not unusual for a Bobby to make slight alterations to his Beat, commonly to make up lost time. Or, as seemingly with Watkins, just to throw those who may be timing the beats in order to plan a burglary.

Monty

Sorry post crossed
Many thanks

Steve

[Elamarna]

Constable John Neil's inquest testimony is interesting. He was never far from "the spot".
There were three police thereabouts. Not one of them saw anything

Dave,

, his was a tight route which never went too far away. From the murder site. The furthest being junction of Bakers Row and Thomas Street. Less than 800 yards.

Steve

[Monty]

A beat map from the 1930s, for H Division, which gives an idea of Beat routes.

Monty

[Elamarna]

A beat map from the 1930s, for H Division, which gives an idea of Beat routes.

Monty

That a very great help. Lots of areas walked ovrer twice as I had assumed must be the case.

If Thain was accurate with his inquest testimony that he passed Bakers Row every 30 minutes I can only conclude that he did not cover every street every circuit,

I just do not see a speed of over 4mph as being viable over a whole nights patrol..

Of course it may be that the 30 minutes he stated was not exact.


You are a star Monty.


Steve

[Monty]

Beats were walked at 2 1/2 mph at night.

Monty

[Elamarna]

Beats were walked at 2 1/2 mph at night.

Monty

Monty

Please forgive me but Am a little confused. By the above.

You have posted differently in the past below are 3 examples:

Pc Neil's route post #2

Beats were walked at 2 1/2 mph in the day, 3 mph in the evening. This needs to be taken into account. Also, checks were made on vulnerable buildings, which took time to execute.




Bernerr street to Mitre Square: how long post # 8

Standard allocated speed for a Met PC is 2 and 1/2 mph in the day, 3 mph in the evening.


Beats post #7
Beats were supposed to be patrolled at 3 mph in the evening and 2 1/2 during the day. on average they were around 30 mins but were longer the further towards the suburbs you went. The inner city patrols were the shortest.



So I hope you can see why I am confused? This seems to be the opposite of what you posted today.

In my thread the Bucks Row project I did raise this point but no-one came back on it; so I am glad you have now.


Steve

[Monty]

No, my bad Steve,

Sorry.

Monty

[Elamarna]

No, my bad Steve,

Sorry.

Monty

?

Not sure what that means Monty. Knows it is early.

But which is correct?

For my work on Neil it's not so important if 2.5mph it only adds 20 or so seconds on to the part of his beat that is of interest

All the best. Sun is out here in London.


Steve