PC Thain's beat

[The Station Cat]

.

Nope, I agree with that Colin.

I will say that Commercial St had accommodation for around 50/60 beds, likewise Leman Street. Mile End and Crowder St took in about 20 each.

Make of that what you wish.

Monty

50/60 beds in Commerical & Leman Street!!! That's huge. Bethnal Green only had 14 and I'm not aware of any section houses. The rest of the bobbies (however many) that might have been must have lived locally. We have 5 bobbies covering 9 beats (at night), one on fixed point. So that gives us 6. There would have had to have been some in the station to look after prisoners and the general up keep of the station (of these they would have also been on reserve, in case of major incident). So it doesn't appear that Bethnal Green had the same resources as Commerical & Leman Street?

[John G]

I assume this is an accurate account of the strength of the Metropolitan Police force in 1888: http://www.casebook.org/press_report.../18881008.html

[Monty]

Monty will have a better idea than me. The establishment of 'H' Division in 1888 was:

1 Superintendent (Thomas Arnold)

30 Inspectors

44 Sergeants

473 Constables

(Total 548)

In my time (late 20th century - & Nottinghamshire not London) we had a 5 shift rota and you would reckon on 20% being on duty at any one time (less a maximum of 25% of that percentage on leave). That would suggest around 75 - 95 (for the whole of 'H' Division). In earlier times a 4 shift rota was the norm with a morning, an afternoon and a night shift, with the 4th on Rest Day. I suspect also that the numbers in the late 19th century were geared more towards night patrols, and that the figure would therefore have been rather higher but, if Monty's view is significantly at variance with that, I would take his numbers as the best estimate ahead of mine.

.

Nope, I agree with that Colin.

I will say that Commercial St had accommodation for around 50/60 beds, likewise Leman Street. Mile End and Crowder St took in about 20 each.

Make of that what you wish.

Monty

[Bridewell]

Would be interesting to know how many bobbies would have been on duty at the station at any one time. Does anyone know?

Monty will have a better idea than me. The establishment of 'H' Division in 1888 was:

1 Superintendent (Thomas Arnold)

30 Inspectors

44 Sergeants

473 Constables

(Total 548)

In my time (late 20th century - & Nottinghamshire not London) we had a 5 shift rota and you would reckon on 20% being on duty at any one time (less a maximum of 25% of that percentage on leave). That would suggest around 75 - 95 (for the whole of 'H' Division). In earlier times a 4 shift rota was the norm with a morning, an afternoon and a night shift, with the 4th on Rest Day. I suspect also that the numbers in the late 19th century were geared more towards night patrols, and that the figure would therefore have been rather higher but, if Monty's view is significantly at variance with that, I would take his numbers as the best estimate ahead of mine.

[Elamarna]

?

Not sure what that means Monty. Knows it is early.

But which is correct?

For my work on Neil it's not so important if 2.5mph it only adds 20 or so seconds on to the part of his beat that is of interest

All the best. Sun is out here in London.


Steve

Dear Monty not sure if you missed my reply to your post last week?

Steve

[The Station Cat]

Would be interesting to know how many bobbies would have been on duty at the station at any one time. Does anyone know?

[Monty]

I intended to include a map (kindly created by Andrew Firth) showing the fixed points of H division however my publishers stated there was room.

You can see a copy on my FB.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/688857101190834/

Monty

[Bridewell]

It appears that the only fixed point , that would have been manned by an officer from Bethnal Green Police Station itself, would have been on Whitechapel Road outside the railway station. Assuming that this point was only manned from 9pm to 1am, then there wouldn't have been an officer on duty there at the time of Polly's murder?

Presumably not as she was still alive at 2.30am.

[The Station Cat]

It appears that the only fixed point , that would have been manned by an officer from Bethnal Green Police Station itself, would have been on Whitechapel Road outside the railway station. Assuming that this point was only manned from 9pm to 1am, then there wouldn't have been an officer on duty there at the time of Polly's murder?

[Bridewell]

That's smashing thanks Bridewell. I'll get them plotted off in due course!!

I assume that these would have been manned from 9pm to 1am like H Divisions.

Does it say whether any of them were manned beyond this?

The preface I quoted for 'H' Division actually precedes the entire list, so they would all have been manned between those times.

The two 'H' Division ones leading to the London Docks which are asterisked (in the original too) were manned from 3pm to 7am.

The interesting one for me is the one at the High Street entrance to George Yard. It would be surprising if he didn't, at some point in the evening, have sight of Martha Tabram, Pearly Poll and their respective soldier clients.

[The Station Cat]

That's smashing thanks Bridewell. I'll get them plotted off in due course!!

I assume that these would have been manned from 9pm to 1am like H Divisions.

Does it say whether any of them were manned beyond this?

[Bridewell]

Interesting and thanks for sharing this!!!!!

So we can be sure of one fixied point for J Division, are any others known? Is there a list for J like the above one for H?

There is:

'J' or Bethnal Green Division

Balls Pond Road, corner of Southgate Road
Bridge St, Water and Morning Lanes, Hackney
Broadway, South Hackney, opposite post office
Clapton Rd, corner of Lea Bridge Rd
Gainsborough Rd, Hackney Wick, S.E. corner of Wick Rd
Green St and Morpeth St, Bethnal Green (junction of)
Hackney and Cambridge Rds (junction of)
Hackney Railway Station, Mare St
High St, Homerton, corner of Church Rd
Kingsland Rd, corner of Lee St
Leyton Rd, corner of Grange Park Rd
Leytonstone Rd, corner of Church Lane
Triangle, Mare St, Hackney
Whitechapel Rd, in front of East London railway station
White Post Lane and Wick Lane, Victoria Park (corner of).

As posted before, the fixed points are all listed in 'Dickens's Dictionary of London 1888', which was available as a reprint from The Works for about £3 a few years ago; I don't know if it still is.

[The Station Cat]

"The under-mentioned places are appointed as fixed points where a police constable is to be permanently stationed from 9pm to 1am. In the event of any person springing a rattle, or persistently ringing a bell in the street or in an area, the police will at once proceed to the spot and render assistance.

H or Whitechapel Division

Ben Jonson-rd and White Horse-st, Stepney, junction of
Brick-la and Bethnal-green-rd, junction of
Christian-st and Commercial-rd, end of
Church-st, Wapping
Columbia-rd, Bethnal Gn, corner of Hassard-st
Commercial-rd-east, corner of Bromehead-st
Commercial-st, Spitalfields, corner of Thrawl-st
Flower and Dean-st and Brick-la, Spitalfields, end of
George-yd, Hight-st, Whitechapel, end of
G.E. Ry., High-st, Shoreditch, front of
Great Garden-st and Whitechapel-rd, opposite end of
Hanbury-st, cor of Deal-st, Mile End New Town
Hare-alley, High-st, Shoreditch, end of
Hermitage-br, Wapping
Leman-st, Commercial-st and Hight-st, Whitechapel, junc of
New Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
Old Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
Ship-alley & St George's-st-east, south end of
Shoreditch Church
Spencer-st and Watney-st, St. Georges East, corner of
Spitalfields Church
Stepney ry-stn, Commercial-rd-ea
Upper East Smithfield, principal entrance London Docks
Warner-pl and Hackney-rd, cor of
Wells-st, Whitechapel, opposite Sailors' Home,
Whitechapel Church
White Horse-la and Mile End-rd, junction of

*A constable is stationed at each of these points from 3pm to 7am."

(There was also a 'J' Division fixed point on Whitechapel Road in front of the East London railway station.)

Interesting and thanks for sharing this!!!!!

So we can be sure of one fixied point for J Division, are any others known? Is there a list for J like the above one for H?

[Bridewell]

The fixed points have been posted before. They are in Dickens's Dictionary of London 1888.

"The under-mentioned places are appointed as fixed points where a police constable is to be permanently stationed from 9pm to 1am. In the event of any person springing a rattle, or persistently ringing a bell in the street or in an area, the police will at once proceed to the spot and render assistance.

H or Whitechapel Division

Ben Jonson-rd and White Horse-st, Stepney, junction of
Brick-la and Bethnal-green-rd, junction of
Christian-st and Commercial-rd, end of
Church-st, Wapping
Columbia-rd, Bethnal Gn, corner of Hassard-st
Commercial-rd-east, corner of Bromehead-st
Commercial-st, Spitalfields, corner of Thrawl-st
Flower and Dean-st and Brick-la, Spitalfields, end of
George-yd, Hight-st, Whitechapel, end of
G.E. Ry., High-st, Shoreditch, front of
Great Garden-st and Whitechapel-rd, opposite end of
Hanbury-st, cor of Deal-st, Mile End New Town
Hare-alley, High-st, Shoreditch, end of
Hermitage-br, Wapping
Leman-st, Commercial-st and Hight-st, Whitechapel, junc of
New Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
Old Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
Ship-alley & St George's-st-east, south end of
Shoreditch Church
Spencer-st and Watney-st, St. Georges East, corner of
Spitalfields Church
Stepney ry-stn, Commercial-rd-ea
Upper East Smithfield, principal entrance London Docks
Warner-pl and Hackney-rd, cor of
Wells-st, Whitechapel, opposite Sailors' Home,
Whitechapel Church
White Horse-la and Mile End-rd, junction of

*A constable is stationed at each of these points from 3pm to 7am."

(There was also a 'J' Division fixed point on Whitechapel Road in front of the East London railway station.)

[Bridewell]

I made this map. It's based on the news paper report, but as I didn't have a period map, I had to use a modern one from Google maps, so the street plans might vary as the area has been developed considerable over the last 100+ years, but it's meant to just be a rough guide.

Going off subject slightly, I'm currently trying to ascertain the positions of the fixed points, once I have done this I'll be sure to post them onto the forum.

The fixed points have been posted before. They are in Dickens's Dictionary of London 1888.