Did Anderson Know

[Phil Carter]

....He seems to have been the only police officer who was honest about the whole Ripper investigation.

All of the others had ulterior motives for suggesting various people as suspects

Hello Trevor,

Straight talk. Like it. Carry on that man!

best wishes

Phil

[robhouse]

"Thanks for your reply Rob.
You say none of this is in the least confusing but actually Anderson"s criterion for "moral proof" is very idiosyncratic. Its as though he is some kind of legal magician who can,simply by by staring hard at someone, eyeball to eyeball in his private office, discover their guilt from their trembling , sweating and falling in a faint."

Hi Natalie,

Well, you are referring to the incident Anderson describes in another case where he came to a conclusion about a suspect's guilt based on his reaction to being told there was hard evidence against him. Again, it is not known what the police knew about Kozminski, or why Anderson came to the conclusion he did. You cannot just assume it is for the reason you are implying. This may have been the reason, or it may have factored into Anderson's conclusion along with other facts. We simply do not know.

"I am sure someone will correct me if i am wrong here but isnt it a fact that Kosminski didnt come to the notice of the police until 1889. For the incident involving his sister.

If that is correct then the police would not have been watching him or his brothers house in 1888."

Hello Trevor.

It is certainly not "a fact that Kosminski didnt come to the notice of the police until 1889." It is possible he didn't, but it is not a fact. There are a few vague "clues" that might give us some hints about when it might have been, but it is not known for sure. It might have been as early as 1888, it might have been 1889 or 1890. It was apparently before Feb 1891. I personally believe that it is likely Kozminski came to the attention of the police earlier than has been generally supposed... but it is all a gray area.

Rob H

[Jonathan H]

Norma,

Another argument which can be mounted is that the City Police were not watching Kodsminski at all, but a different Jewish suspect -- a lead which came to naught.

Smith is taking Anderson at face value that his Polish Jew Super-suspect must be contemporaneous with the 1888 to 1891 investigation.

But what if he wasn't?

If he wasn't contemporaneous then a through-line can be made through the primary, late primary and early secondary sources to show that, whatever the merits or demerits of Kosminski as the fiend, Anderson is projecting back this too-late suspect into the actual hunt [perhaps because his name was indeed on an 1888 scum list].

The Evans/Rumbelow t'Sailors Home' thesis [as I call it] provides us with a series of matches; the scoffing of Abberline, Reid and Smith, the Mac Report, official and unofficial versions, the bits and pieces fed to Sims by Mac, Anderson's sincere mythologising, Swanson's notations, with the actual dates of Kosminski's incarcerations.

In other words, if the asylum records had actually shown Kosminski incarcerated in late 1888 -- as a puzzled Fido expected -- then this would in fact not make sense!

[Natalie Severn]

Oh please get real. What planet are you guys on.

This thread has again descended into fantacy.

Major Smith was nothing of the sort

Pirate

I told you all one of them would be back with a great big shovel load of mud to pour over Major Smith!This time its our friend Archie !

[Natalie Severn]

Dear Jonathan,
I think Major Smith and other policemen of the time were far more on the ball than you seem to give them credit."not in 1888 nor twenty years later did any of us know who the Ripper was----he had us all beat!" is what Major Smith wrote in 1910.And he tackled Robert Anderson in some depth on his claim and his reckless assertion".
I believe the City Police suspect referred to is someone who was around Aldgate in 1888.Why would the Police be getting paid to be watching him in 1891?The Whitechapel murder file was closed .The murder hunt had long wound down.It doesnt make sense,Jonathan.
Best
Norma

[Jeff Leahy]

Oh come on Nat's your the only ripperologist in history that sites Major Smith as a credible source

much though I lov ya

Jx

[Natalie Severn]

Oh come on Nat's your the only ripperologist in history that sites Major Smith as a credible source

much though I lov ya

Jx

Really? Well I never and I wonder why on earth that is ?


I mean Anderson known for his "Fairytales and "definitely ascertained fact" nonsense about "low class Polish Jews and Macnaghten known for his 40 year old drowned doctor theory -the evidence for which he told us he burnt to a cinder are such credible sources!!!
Major Smith who debunked their silly theories lock stock and barrel seems a lot more reliable than either of these fantasists!

[Jeff Leahy]

Really? Well I never and I wonder why on earth that is ?


I mean Anderson known for his "Fairytales and "definitely ascertained fact" nonsense about "low class Polish Jews and Macnaghten known for his 40 year old drowned doctor theory -the evidence for which he told us he burnt to a cinder are such credible sources!!!
Major Smith who debunked their silly theories lock stock and barrel seems a lot more reliable than either of these fantasists!

See you at the next WS

[Jonathan H]

I'll try again.

I believe that based on the sources we have both Druitt and Kosminski came to police attention after they were both impossible to bring to justice; one was dead and the other declared mad.

This information could never be the springboard for an official investigation as there was nobody to arrest.

This information came to Macnaghten and Anderson alone. The former via the Old Boy Net, and the latter we do not know, though the Crawford Letter is similar in that it potentially bypassed all other police channels.

Therefore how could Smith be expected know anyhting about these suspects, until ithey began appearing n distorted form in Griffiths, Sims, Anderson and eventually Mac's memoirs?

[Hunter]

If Kosminsky was indeed the person the City CID was trailing then Smith would have to know. If he wasn't, then Swanson got it wrong and maybe he got Kosminski wrong as well. There's too many former policemen getting things wrong to pick and choose what might be credible.

I have to agree with Phil Carter on this. This is either a veiled attempt at subterfuge or some effort to throw some suspect names out there in the hope that one will stick to pad their immortal resume.

[Roy Corduroy]

I believe that based on the sources we have both Druitt and Kosminski came to police attention after they were both impossible to bring to justice; one was dead and the other declared mad.

This information came to Macnaghten and Anderson alone. The former via the Old Boy Net, and the latter we do not know, though the Crawford Letter is similar in that it potentially bypassed all other police channels.

Hi Jonathan, what you say makes sense for Montague Druitt. But if Kosminski is already commited, there is no need for a relative of his to contact James Lindsay (Crawford).

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

If Kosminsky was indeed the person the City CID was trailing then Smith would have to know.

Regardless of who the City CD was trailing, since Sagar and Cox both spoke of it, I'm sure Smith knew of the survelliance, too. He simply left it out of his memoirs. Why? Probably for the simple reason that is failed to produce the desired result. "He beat us."

Swanson got it wrong and maybe he got Kosminski wrong as well.

A possiblity for sure, but digging around in Scott's essay on that subject I found:

East of the (St Botolph) churchyard, there were three premises on Aldgate High Street. The first of these, no. 7, was a dining room operated by Willatt & Wattam. In 1889, Kallin & Radin, hairdressers, shared these premises until 1891, when they were replaced by another hairdresser, Karl Frederick Plunneke.

Who knows, maybe Aaron Kosmisnki was working there at the hairdressers, in Aldgate, City of London, and he was the man they were watching.

This is either a veiled attempt at subterfuge or some effort to throw some suspect names out there in the hope that one will stick to pad their immortal resume

Well that is the question after all. Did Anderson know? And remember, he didn't name a name.

Roy

[Phil Carter]

Well that is the question after all. Did Anderson know? And remember, he didn't name a name.

Roy

Hello Roy,

Yup- you have got it in one. Anderson, spymaster, weaving in and out of providing only what HE deemed fit.

best wishes

Phil

[Jonathan H]

We don't know what Swanson actually knew, or did not know, as he left no kind of proper account.

This private notation could be just repeating a jumble of bits and pieces verbally given him to him by his ex-chief.

So far as I know Swanson made no attempt to go public with this 'Seaside Home' version, nor was it family knowledge that the alleged name of the fiend lay in a book on a shelf. By that I mean that Swanson, in keeping this information pretty much for his 'eyes only' suggests that it was not, for him, definitive. He may have kept also quiet because he feared that any kind of publication of this hopeless jumble would only bring further anguish and humiliation to a man he revered.

The suspect Swanson names, 'Kosminski', is mentioned in an official Scotland Yard document [with exactly the same lack of any other names?] the Macnaghten Report of Feb. 1894, and in the unofficial rewrite of this same source in 1898 -- in which Mac knows that he is still alive in the asylum.

The un-named Kosminski also makes an appearance in Griffiths -- an adaptation of the Mac Report, unofficial version -- and most interestingly in Sims' 1907 magazine piece in which the famous writer argues that this suspect was at large for a considerable length of time after the Kelly murder, which matches the medical records of this suspect.

A very strong argument can be mounted that Macnaghten knew, or remembered Kosminki more accurately than Anderson and/or Swanson, and of course utterly rejected him as the Ripper -- rightly, or wrongly.

The biggest hit that Anderson takes over his preferred suspect -- and I do think this is devastating -- is that not a single source that we have, amongst our admittedly meagre collection, shows that Anderson ever remembered, or grasped, that Kosminski ws not a contemporaneous suspect.

If that is the case then perhaps Anderson fastened onto this suspect as l;ate as 194/5 from Macnaghten's Report? Anderson had lonmg believed it must have been a maniac who lived locally. Here was amnaic who lived locally.

The pivot is that Macnagten had backdated Kosminski's incarceration to the much more politically-friendly 'March 1889'.

Did Anderson read this Report and take note of the Kosminski section, and absorb it all as literally true?

Four years later the unofficial, media-driven version of Macnaghten's Report did the rounds. By then Macnaghten had revised and buried the Lawende-sailor sighting into a cop seeing a Jew. A man who allegedly somewhat resembled Kosminski. This sleight-of-hand arguably placed a too-late suspect squarely inside the 1888 investigation -- much better for the Yard's image.

The problem is that in reading Griffiths, and later Sims, Anderson may have absorbed this propaganda too, and taken it to be the truth -- with one accurate correction; the witness was a Jew, not a cop. Yet his fading memory left in place this suspect being a Jew, not a Gentile-featured sailor. The unsatisfying events involving two sailor suspects, Sadler and Grainger, meant that Anderson's ego smothered all memory of them.

It's just my opinion, but to me we can track the evolution of Anderson's mistaken belief, by 1910, that the un-named Lawende said yes/no to the un-named Kosminski.

[Jonathan H]

To Roy,

I totally agree about the Crawford Letter. I just cited it as a genric example of how a Ripper suspect could bypass other police, and go straight to Anderson's desk.

Our meager records on Kosminski begin with Macnaghten -- for now -- and therefore I think the CID Deputy found him, perhaps via the scum hovel search list and discovered that a madman, somewhat suspected by his family, had been incarcerated years, or months before. I think that one of the reasons Mac did not take this all that seriously is that the suspect had been out and about way too long after the Kelly murder, and he was already convinced -- rightly or wrongly -- that Druitt was the Ripper.