Did Anderson Know

[Chris]

Where exactly are you getting the diagnosis of dementia at Colney Hatch? Did you even bother to read what I posted?

Just to confirm that I have nothing in my notes about "dementia" in any of the Colney Hatch records, and I believe I have seen all the known documents.

[Natalie Severn]

Rob,
I am saying that the conviction you and others have,that Aaron Kosminski suffered from Paranoid schizophrenia is totally without foundation.
I am asking,time and again,how,without a doctors diagnosis,without ever even having met Kosminski,you can assert that he did suffer from paranoid schizophrenia when every word ,phrase and medical diagnosis supports a different diagnosis.
I am saying,because it is a fact,that as this person who you believe was Jack the Ripper had been placed in Colney Hatch or Leavesdon for a period of nearly 30 years from the age of 25,he would have been very unlikely to have been described by the doctors as simply having "dementia" and "secondary dementia"and his medical records being left like that and ABOVE ALL the very fact that doctors would have dared risk their reputation and the lives of the staff and other patients, by stating that he was "NOT a DANGER to others".It is honestly inconceivable.
I have known,worked with and read about people with paranoid schizophrenia
whose episodes of psychosis had and could cause harm and danger to others.
As long as they took their drugs,only developed in the last 50 years approx.,they could live without experiencing violent psychosis,but in 1891 right through to 1919 there were no such drugs available.
I will give you an example of a tragedy that happened in the hospital where my mother worked as an Art Therapist.It happened in approximately 1980.
A man suffering from paranoid schizophrenia but under medication to control it ,had been going to his woodwork class,in the adjacent room to my mother"s art class, under medication,for 6 -8 years.Under medication he was able to function reasonably well .Because of his progress,he was allowed a home visit for a particular occasion.His family had assured the institution that his medication would be supervised .However his family awoke on the second day of his home visit to find the man"s wife dead,her head had been severed by an axe from the garden shed.
This case illustrates the risks to the community involved in allowing a person suffering from the violent form of paranoid schizophrenia to be relied upon to take their medication.As that medication to control the illness ,was not even developed during the time Aaron was alive,and restraint,of the violent episode, was by solitary confinement and straight jacket ,it is inconceivable that Aaron would have been described by his doctors as "harmless" and "not a danger to others".Moreover,there is no indication in his surviving casenotes that cover his admission ,that he was considered any kind of danger then,or at any time in his long stay at Leavesdon.
So Rob,presenting me with medical tracts using terminology no longer extant, about various mental health conditions, and suggesting they mean the doctors had diagnosed Aaron Kosminski"s illness as that of "paranoid schizophrenia" is a pointless exercise.You are not his doctor,you have not assessed his illness ,you cannot form a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia when his doctors state he was considered,by them,in their diagnosis,to be harmless and his 30 record supports their 1891/1894 diagnosis.

Chris,

In 1894 Aaron Kosminski was transferred from Colney Hatch to Leavesdon ,as you know, and upon arriving at Leavesdon his medical notes contain the diagnosis ,presumably having been made by his doctors at Colney Hatch of "dementia" - Male Case Register.
On 19th April 1894,his condition in the patients register at LEAVESDON is termed "Dem Sec" [Secondary Dementia] indicating there had been a progression.This progression is also clearly indicated in his Colney Hatch medical notes -presumably prior to transfer -dated April 13th 1894 where it states "Demented and incoherent",Health fair].Such a progression concurs with the course the illness frequently takes with Dementia sufferers today.

[Chris]

Natalie

You wrote previously:
In fact the diagnosis of his illness was " Dementia "[Colney Hatch 1891]and "Secondary Dementia",as the illness progressed[Leavesdon 1894].

The diagnosis of his illness at Colney Hatch in 1891 was not "Dementia". The diagnosis was "Mania".

The description of him as "demented" in the Colney Hatch case book was more than three years later, only six days before he was transferred to Leavesden.

[Jeff Leahy]

No definitive test exists,even today, to diagnose schizophrenia.A DOCTOR makes the "diagnosis" on the basis of a comprehensive assessment of the person"s history.So how on earth can we here, never having even met Aaron Kosminski,or having had proper access to his case history,ever think we are in a position to offer a diagnosis of schizophrenia?

Of course this is correct. My brother made it perfectly clear that he would have to make a full and thorough examination. And even then, pin pointing the exact nature and causes of the illness is very difficult and not an exact science, as yet. However he was asked to give an opinion on 'What is known'. He caveated himself heavily. However he said most probably a form of Schizophrenia, rather then another illness, based on the records he saw.

He also never stated Kosminski committed the JtR crimes. He said given what is known, it is within the realms of possibility. Siting other case studies and his experience, which by and large, is that the majority of sufferers are rarely dangerous and once cut/taken from the environment where voilence takes place, revert to being harmless. Thats not to say that there arnt cases of schizophrenic's being violent and difficult to calm down. Each case must be judged as Norma says, by its individual merits and each varies a lot.

What is being said is that 'Given what is known' about Aaron Kosminski that he was PROBABLY suffering a form of schizophrenia. That his apparent lack of violence is pretty normal schizophrenic behaviour. It's a possibility he committed the murders given what is known about the condition schizophrenia. That his age is fairly typical of the people my brother would be called to examine. He would expect another trigger such as alcohol or drugs to be involved.

Yours Jeff

[Natalie Severn]

Jeff,
I am not clear here.Are you saying your brother is a Consultant psychiatrist?
If so,then I am surprised that he would say that a person at the turn of the century who was considered harmless by doctors on admission and throughout his stay,was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia for which,during psychotic episodes,there was no cure other than the operation of leucotomy---of which there is no mention, or restraint in a padded cell with a straight jacket-of which there is never any mention?

[Jeff Leahy]

I’m saying he is the head of Social services and his job is dealing with and being responsible for schizophrenics and he has a number of qualifications, which allows him to do so (a degree at Bangor and a masters at Chelmsford). He is on call to help the police in a large county just outside London.

He has worked with, and is an expert on Schizophrenia, he is not a historian. He has spent sometime looking at Aarons notes, and given me considerable time discussing the case. He seems fairly happy, in private, stating that Aaron Kosminski PROBABLY suffered from a form of Schizophrenia.

It is also the opinion of nearly every other expert I have consulted.

Yours Jeff

[robhouse]

Natalie,

Since it is clear that you do not bother to read what I post I don't see any point in continuing. I was not intending to get into a larger debate about Kozminski being "harmless"... I was simply replying to your statements that a. Kozminski's diagnosis was just as likely to be dementia, as opposed to schizophrenia, and b. that Kozminski's diagnosis at Colney Hatch was dementia.

I will only make some final points again:

1. Kozminski's disorder at Colney Hatch was mania.

2. Furthermore, he was classified as a "person of unsound mind" --- this according to both Houchin's certificate and Henry Chambers' admission order.

3. The term "dementia" in the late 19th century roughly corresponded to the modern understanding of schizophrenia... according to the study I posted selections from. However, the differentiation between the 3 primary diagnoses, mania, melancholia, and dementia, was somewhat unclear. It seems that the primary differentiator between mania and dementia was that mania was applied to patients who were "overactive."

4. The modern "dementia" which you seem to think Kozminski may have had, is generally associated with adult onset diseases like Alzheimer's. The modern term "secondary dementia" as far as I understand it means chronic dementia "following and due to a psychosis or some other underlying disease process." I am not sure how the term secondary dementia was understood in 1910.

5. The diagnoses of dementia and secondary dementia come from Aaron's later Leavesden files. I am not sure when these were added to the file (perhaps Chris can help out with a date here)... my understanding is that they were added at some point between 1894 and 1910, but that it was unknown when.

6. The diagnosis of secondary dementia would fit with the idea that Aaron's schizophrenia degenerated to the point where he became reduced to what is known as a "catatonic stupor."

5. Several aspects of Aaron's records suggest that he MAY have been a paranoid schizophrenic, although this is only a suggestion. For example, the fact that Aaron’s instinct told him to not accept food from other people may suggest he believed his food was poisoned. Also, his grandiose delusions of omniscience may support this. In the case of paranoid schizophrenics, patients will commonly hear auditory hallucinations, and be obsessed with paranoid delusions, typically both of grandeur and persecution, but disorganized thoughts, disorganized speech, and flat emotional response are usually not as prominent.

[Chris]

5. The diagnoses of dementia and secondary dementia come from Aaron's later Leavesden files. I am not sure when these were added to the file (perhaps Chris can help out with a date here)... my understanding is that they were added at some point between 1894 and 1910, but that it was unknown when.

I would guess this was the diagnosis when he was admitted, though I don't see any explicit statement of that.

I think it is always stated to be "Dementia Secondary" (variously abbreviated), including in Case Register 12A (transcribed on Begg, Facts, p. 374, simply as "dementia"). In view of what you posted above, that may be significant. In one record the printed form says this is "as Scheduled by the Commissioners in Lunacy", so there is probably an official description of the condition somewhere.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Stewart,

You're absolutely right. In 1910 Anderson appeared reckless. TLSOMOL was his last hurrah. The sixty-nine year old had nothing to lose and was determined not to go gentle into that good night. Anderson was a political mischief maker whose stock in trade made it impossible for anyone to know how much of what he said or wrote was the truth or carefully-crafted lies. Secrets can have long half-lives and the game of bluff and counter-bluff has a nasty way of unexpectedly exploding in your face, so in 1910 the retired Anderson was still a force to be reckoned with and nobody was taking any chances with him.

"I have nothing to conceal in this matter; and if Government will release me from the honourable obligations to reticence respecting the Secret Service work at Whitehall, my defence will be full and complete," he wrote in The Times, 12th April 1910.

Anderson wasn't stupid. His pension was safe. He was throwing down the gauntlet knowing full well that the government would make certain he took his many secrets quietly to the grave.

Did Anderson write the "Parnellism and Crime" articles? Probably. Did he know the truth about Jack the Ripper? Probably. Was he honest about it in TLSOMOL? This is doubtful, for he would never have needed to apologize to the Jewish community had he been telling the truth.

Regards,

Simon

[Chris]

Peterson and Haines, A text-book of legal medicine and toxicology, Volume 1 (1903), contains a fairly detailed description of primary and secondary dementia, on pages 623-626:

http://books.google.com/books?id=GGRM3QZVyjAC

[robhouse]

"This is doubtful, for he would never have needed to apologize to the Jewish community had he been telling the truth."

Anderson apologized to the Jewish community because he thought his words had been misinterpreted as an aspersion against the Jews in general... he did not apologize or backpedal from his assertion that the Ripper was a Polish Jew who was known to the police.

[robhouse]

Peterson and Haines, A text-book of legal medicine and toxicology, Volume 1 (1903), contains a fairly detailed description of primary and secondary dementia, on pages 623-626:
http://books.google.com/books?id=GGRM3QZVyjAC

Very interesting. Thanks for posting Chris.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Rob,

If Anderson was telling the truth why did so many of his contemporaries disagree with him? Why should Anderson have been the only policeman to know the true facts of the matter?

Regards,

Simon

[Natalie Severn]

There is no indication whatsoever that Aaron Kosminski was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia.He may have been suffering from a form of schizophrenia,but without the doctor"s full diagnosis of that and their reasons for concluding it,we are not in any position to say even this.For twenty five years his diagnosis was unchanged.He had progressive dementia and if you care to start posting links of some of the comparable symptoms between dementia and [for example]"simple" schizophrenia which, Aaron may have been suffering from and which is a form of schizophrenia where the person is not subject to the type of violent psychosis that can accompany paranoid schizophrenia-then that would be very helpful.If not then at the weekend ,when I have more time,I will do so myself.
In simple schizophrenia the trend of thought,like Aaron,can be very bizarre and deluded -a distinguishing feature of conduct is "shamelessness"-think here of Kosminski"s obsession with masturbation.While such a person may well become a tramp or a vagrant, they are very rarely delinquent and rarely in trouble with the law in this respect.
The most marked characteristic of a "simple schizophrenic" is a "REFUSAL TO WORK"- where there is a complete indifference and lack of interest.

In dementia while most common amongst the aged,it can happen at any age,and many bizarre forms of thinking also occur including auditory and visual hallucinations,delusions,confused speech,excitability,refusal to wash,eat certain food,etc.bUt again,run -ins with the law are rare.

It is the concept of Kosminski suffering from "paranoid schizophrenia" that I take issue with, because of his doctors having carried out some form of risk assessment and concluding that Aaron was not a danger to others.This coupled with a complete absence of any record of him EVER having to have been placed in a padded cell even with restraints,especially in the first few years at Colney Hatch.DAVID COHENin Colney Hatch just a few years earlier-from December 1888 yes---- I would have no difficulty accepting a diagnosis from his Colney Hatch doctors of this man suffering from paranoid schizophrenia---- straight jacket/padded cell the lot when he became violent and psychotic ---but Aaron---nothing,just that their risk assessment deemed him harmless.

Norma

[Chris]

For twenty five years his diagnosis was unchanged.

It's been pointed out to you three times now that this is not true. At Colney Hatch the diagnosis was "Mania"; at Leavesden it was "Dementia Secondary".