Did Anderson Know

[Simon Wood]

Hi Chris,

Why couldn't SRA have learned the Ripper's fate? Why was it obvious that he couldn't?

And what is so silly about Anderson's 1908 contradiction that there was insufficient evidence to send the Ripper to Broadmoor?

Regards,

Simon

[Chris]

Why couldn't SRA have learned the Ripper's fate? Why was it obvious that he couldn't?

And what is so silly about Anderson's 1908 contradiction that there was insufficient evidence to send the Ripper to Broadmoor?

Well, all I can say is that my view is that an attempt had been made by a witness - probably Lawende - to identify Aaron Kozminski, and that Anderson was convinced, at least in later life, that the witness had recognised him, but that he couldn't be charged because the witness said he could not identify him, and in any case even if the witness had said he could identify him it wouldn't prove him guilty of murder.

[Natalie Severn]

Chris,
I had thought this was sheer speculation until the lady's name was mentioned.I was simply speculating -not suggesting anything factual to do with someone
I never met or thought of until an hour ago.But ofcourse,I dont need to be convinced that there were no mental health issues.I would not dream of wanting to give offence to her grandchildren---what on earth are we getting into here.
Yours Sincerely

Norma

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil,

Honestly! There's always some smartass who comes along, crosses all the Ts, dots all the Is, puts things into perspective and then buggers off with barely an how's your father or tip of the hat.

Regards,

Simon

Hello Simon,

I do apologise old chap, here's the wink to tip you with as requested

Of course, if someone actually came along with EVIDENCE...like....

The Seaside Rest Home signing-in book with a signature of Kosminski, Lawende and a few coppers, including Anderson, all genuine, with the same pencil, had nothing to do with anyone connected to Diary writing, CornwAllian mischievousness, arranged photographic prints,..... that wasn't forged, was properly dated, could be totally verified, together with details of the policemen transporting said Kosminski, with receipts for expenses, preferably all topped off with photos of the whole group on non-grainy, photographic paper in good lighting (down on the sea-front perhaps?)....

then, and only then, might I believe it... that Anderson DID know and we can all trundle off to the Black Museum and to hand over the said ledger and documents and say there... now we have the proof Anderson wasn't a liar and you can tell all the policemen that visit that it is 100% certain that Kosminski was the Ripper identified for ONE MURDER ONLY.... but he couldn't be put away for it.

How's that for a nice ending to a nice story?

best wishes

Phil

[The Good Michael]

The Seaside Rest Home signing-in book...

Phil,

Would you like the color of the book in black or red?

Mike

[Phil Carter]

Hello Mike,

Red would be a little too theatrical would it not..Blood etc etc etc?
Then again, black would be seen as morbid... but would fit in with the name of the museum.

Nah, no one would believe it then would they?

best wishes

Phil

[Stewart P Evans]

Speculate

Unfortunately I cant provide a direct link to the Crawford letter.
The above link takes you to a discussion that considers that it may have been connected to Druitt.
In the podcast on Kosminski Rob House makes the interesting observation that we do not know the origin of this letter..
However Anderson was clearly introduced to someone who felt they knew the identity of Jack the Ripper.
Rob House has speculated a link between Crawford and the Kosminski family via Sweat shops?
So the horses mouth would be Aarons Sister. The person he attacked with a knife?
Pirate

Druittites will use the 'Crawford letter' to speculate that it relates to Druitt, Andersonites/Kozminskiites will use the 'Crawford letter' to speculate that it relates to Kozminski, and so it goes on...

[Stewart P Evans]

Yes You Have

I cited that reference in the essay. I don't think I've changed very much.

Oh yes you have.

Years ago we used to have some quite pleasant exchanges and I have greatly admired your research and writing on the Jewish suspect aspect.

In more recent years I have noticed that you have made some very petulant, and cynical, remarks in your posts, quite unlike the earlier Scott.

In fact one or two were so bad that I feared that you were becoming like me!

[Stewart P Evans]

Hi Rob,

Here you are. This should keep you going for a while—

[ATTACH]7929[/ATTACH]

Regards,

Simon

ROFLMAO

[harry]

Phil,
I agree entirely with your kind of evidence.Something real,in documented form.Not the historical claptrap that if Anderson said he knew ,it must be so,as Anderson wouldn't lie.Pretty soon it will not be Sir Robert,but Saint Robert.
Just curious, but how did the copy of Anderson's book get to Swanson.Delivered personnely by Anderson,or delivered by messenger,or whatever? Anyone know?

[Chris]

Just curious, but how did the copy of Anderson's book get to Swanson.Delivered personnely by Anderson,or delivered by messenger,or whatever? Anyone know?

There is an inscription in the front which has been read as "To Donald with very good wishes from Fred".

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=100993&postcount=88

[Jeff Leahy]

Afraid not Jeff.I would give much greater credence to a] the absence of any actual recorded crimes of violence or any police record of violent behaviour or b] the fact that medical staff who assessed him at Colney Hatch and Leavesdon wrote in his admission notes that he was "harmless" and "not a danger to others" .
His sister could also have had mental health problems of a delusionary nature like Aaron Kosminski himself did.
The only time he appeared in a court of law was when he had failed to comply with the law as it wasthen and put a muzzle on the dog he was walking in Cheapside in November 1889.

Hi Norma

Firstly much like everyone else I am only speculating, and I appreciate that it is an area of Ripperology that is rather clumsy and oft controversial.

So lets just recap why I find Rob’s speculation about the Crawford letter interesting

http://www.casebook.org/podcast/listen.html?id=74

Firstly we have Simon Wood espousing a complicated scenario that involves conspiracy and cover up. Then we have SPE suggesting ineptitude and senility. And both going to considerable lengths to find small slithers of evidence that really reveal nothing that has not already been discussed at length by Paul Begg with regards to Sir Robert Anderson. And both arguments I simply do not buy.

However that is not to say that Simon and Stewart do not raise some fair/interesting points, they are after all men of great experience and knowledge about the case:
Why is it that the other officers involved in the case seem to know nothing about Anderson’s claims if what he says is indeed true?

It does indeed seem somewhat puzzling. So The scenario I’m suggesting has some features that I like because they allow for and to some extent explain why other officers would have had little knowledge of the evident reported by Anderson and Swanson. But more importantly they explain why Anderson might have been so sure of himself in his belief that the killer was identified.

We know that Crawford introduced a ‘Sister’ to Anderson, I think it fair to speculate that she believed her brother to be Jack the Ripper. IS it not a feasibility therefore that Anderson would have asked Swanson to look into these claims on his behalf?

If that was indeed the case then it is indeed possible that only Swanson and Anderson would have been involved and had any knowledge of the events.

Add to this: we know that Aaron threatened his sister with a knife and that Aarons family were involved, like Crawford, in the Sweater system.

Of course there are other problems involved so it is a long way from saying Anderson actually new the identity of Jack The Ripper. One of the main problems being that the only possible witness for such a scenario is Schwartz, not lawende and Begg has long speculated his doubts about whether or not Stride was a Ripper victim.. However I personally think he is wrong in that assessment. (Gasp shock horror)

Just to touch on your comments about mental illness. As you know this is an area I have researched at length. Indeed I spent time yesterday with my brother and strongly disagree with Martin Fido’s assessments. Schizophrenics are NOT DANGEROUS, under very rare circumstance, usually due to drugs or alcohol, they can become very dangerous indeed when going through a state called ‘Psychotic episode’ these attacks happen in waves usually around 16 weeks. Once taken out of his or her environment and placed in secure institution we would expect someone suffering this illness, which is what it is, to be completely harmless.

As SPE has said, people discussing Druitt will claim the Crawford letter refers to Druitt, and of course people referring to the Batty Street Lodger will claim that it refers to Tumbelty. I am here speculating that they both refer to Aaron Kosminski because I believe that makes the most sense. But that is a long way from saying Aaron was Jack the Ripper. What I am saying is that of the various theories I have heard relating to people suggested the identity of Jack the Ripper.

Well Rob House’s theory is by far the Best.

Yours Jeff

PS Norma: the nature nurture argument within the psychiatric field is annoyingly unclear. When challenged my brother said he would not be surprised to find other examples of the illness within the family but would not state that that would have to be the case. As far as I’m aware no direct genetic link to schizophrenia has been established, although that is not to say it wont be.

[Natalie Severn]

Questions about Aaron"s illness and diagnosis

Thankyou Pirate for your long post summarising what you believe to be the grounds for Anderson"s claim that he knew the identity of Jack the Ripper.
My reasons for finding it difficult to accept Anderson"s claim,has to do with several factors but the most significant, to my mind ,remains Martin Fido"s objection, which was, as I understand it, that Aaron not only had no police record of violence at any point in his years in Whitechapel ,but because there was a complete absence of any recorded violent behaviour during his long years at Colney Hatch and Leavesdon----and there would have been Jeff, and it would have been highlighted in his records had it been the case.I dont accept threatening his sister with a knife to be in the same order as a police record of violence.That was more like what happens in households when people are under anxiety from many directions-in other words,a fairly common "domestic" incident where nobody was physically hurt.
My second reason ,is as you point out,to do with other police officers not being prepared to support his claim,as was the case for example with Abberline, and in the case of the London City Police Chief Smith,coming out in print to actually deny his claims,in the very same year as Anderson"s claim came out in print,1910 adding that none of them ever knew who the ripper was ,either at the time or twenty years later or indeed known where he had lived.
I believe this is important for several reasons,the main one being the nature of the Ripper"s crimes and sensation they caused at the time.
Gossip spreads like wildfire.Had Anderson"s claim been true,fellow senior police officers would have known,particularly Macnaghten and Smith----and I would add Abberline here.But they didnt know,and Smith and Abberline said so while Macnaghten settled for Druitt-apparently.
So I believe Anderson probably made the claim in his autobiography to defend his reputation over a case that had grabbed World Attention.
Finally,you talk of schizophrenia being the illness Aaron Kosminski suffered from.But that isnt at all clear,though I agree there seem to become indications of it.
However,Aaron"s case notes describe him as suffering from "Dementia" and I would add that his symptoms certainly closely match those of a person suffering from dementia-particularly as it advances.
It may be thought only the old suffer from dementia but that is not so.Any adult can develop it due to a series of mini strokes as in vascular dementia or due to a hereditary weakness.
Lets look a little closely at a few of the case note comments:

Has not worked for six years:
His work record is very typical -as is an "obstinate refusal to work" as was the case throughout his stay in the two mental health institutions,Colney Hatch and Leavesdon.Moreover,dementia is a progressive illness from which sadly there is no return,and no known cure.It can be helped by outside stimulus but in Aaron"s case that appears not to have worked to any significant degree as he remained idle,confused in his speech and extremely obstinate---a very common and obvious symptom of dementia.

An absence of self care ,refusal or unwillingness to wash is another common symptom.

And what of his "delusions".Again ,sadly,quite common.Thought processes and patterns can become not only confused but downright deluded,as in the "Universal Instinct guiding Aaron"s movements" ----at first glance very similar to schizophrenia"s hallucinations, but crucially ,without the potential violent psychosis that can occur when a person suffers from paranoid schizophrenia.


And so,I believe,like most other people who suffer from dementia,Aaron
followed a pattern of behaviour that included,inertia,refusal to wash, disinterest in socialising ,refusal to work,confusion of thought and language,
but,above all,he was a harmless and fragile individual,who was unable to look after himself even in the very basic sense of washing and eating and keeping himself clean and tidy.

Best Wishes


Norma

[Jeff Leahy]

Blimmey Norma you’ve opened a whole can of worms there. I wont bother answering your comments about other officers knowing the story. You either except that Anderson may have kept information received from Matilda as a secret between him or Swanson or you do not.

However I must challenge your comments about Aaron’s mental condition. Martin Fido (loved and respected though he may be) is not an expert on Schizophrenia. When he wrote his book back in the 1980’s expert views on the subject were very different than they are today. And clearly his opinions were governed by the expert advice he received at that time.

I have spent considerable time going through those notes with someone who works with and treats people with this condition on a daily basis. And while I think it unlikely he will give his expert opinion with relation to JtR on camera, I have been fortunate enough to have some fairly candid discussions about Aaron Kosminski and Schizophrenia.. And I can assure you he was NOT suffering Dementia.

It is accepted that the nature of this illness is strongly contested by modern expert opinion. Indeed even the word Schizophrenia which suggests multiple personalities is somewhat miss leading and some experts in the field would like the condition re-named as a syndrome. However schizophrenic’s by and large, and this cannot be emphasized enough, ARE NOT DANGEROUS.

Schizophrenic serial killers are very rare, infact one of the rarest groups and usually fall into the disorganized group of killers. If they are connected to multiple killings this is usually in a very small period of time, they do not tend to kill over long periods, more likely to go on a one-day killing spree. Peter Sutcliff is NOT a typical Schizophrenic if indeed he is suffering the condition.

There is nothing in Aaron Kosminski’s medical information that is particularly out of the normal with schizophrenia as a condition indeed the fact that he appears to have been relatively harmless is as would be expected had he committed these crimes. This of course my expert ran a number of caveats over (but that’s what experts do) clearly the drugs used today were not available in 1888, had they had been Aarons condition would have been treatable although not curable.

My expert was not particularly interested in Martin Fido’s opinions but decided to draw his own conclusion based on information supplied. And that conclusion was Aaron suffered from Schizophrenia. Of course expert opinion may change in the future it is clearly a little understood subject on which our knowledge is expanding upon, but like Martin Fido I can only go by the expert information that I have been given in this point in time.

All I can assure you is that I intend to handle the subject with the care, understanding, and sensitivity it deserves. Making wild accusations that people suffering from schizophrenia are likely to become like Jack the Ripper is not only not in my remit, but very very far from the truth and would be highly irresponsible. Schizophrenics are NOT dangerous and the crimes committed by JtR were so rare as to be practically unique. However that said, my expert seemed happy that the possibility that Aaron committed these crimes was within the realms of what might be possible given what little is known….and interestingly he gave that time period (psychotic episode) as approximately 16 weeks.

Anyway perhaps it is something we could discuss in more depth at the WS meeting.

Yours Jeff

[Chris]

Druittites will use the 'Crawford letter' to speculate that it relates to Druitt, Andersonites/Kozminskiites will use the 'Crawford letter' to speculate that it relates to Kozminski, and so it goes on...

Preferably after reading what it actually says:

2 CAVENDISH SQUARE
W.

My dear Anderson,

I send you this line to ask you to see & hear the bearer, whose name is unknown to me. She has or thinks she has a knowledge of the author of the Whitechapel murders. The author is supposed to be nearly related to her, & she is in great fear lest any suspicions should attach to her & place her & her family in peril.

I have advised her to place the whole story before you, without giving you any names, so that you may form an opinion as to its being worth while to investigate.

Very sincerely yours,
Crawford

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-emily.html