How Are The Mighty Fallen

[Trevor Marriott]

Jonathan

Your theories seem to make sense with you but it seems no one concurs with you.

You have to accept that if either Coles of Mackenzie were Ripper victims then you theory goes up the swanee river and is lost for ever.

Anyone dismissing either murder outright is very naieve and foolish to many similarities.

[Jonathan H]

Thanks, Mike


In my opinion, people are are missing that the Mac Report, official version, was a politically-driven document.

You are quite right to question how Macnaghten can say that suspects were homicidal maniacs anyhow, especially since -- officially -- none of them had killed anybody, or been accused of such crimes, except maybe Ostrog trying to dangerously flee from a cop to whom he was handcuffed.

The imperative was to nullify the Cutbush potential-scandal. Plus, Mac did believe that Druitt was the Ripper, and Anderson believed the same of Kosminski [perhaps backed by Swanson].

Look at the way, in the same document, Macnaghten deals with Coles and Sadler. You would never know from his 1894 Report that this sailor was being looked at seriously for the Ripper murders. He makes it seem as if this is all just a tabloid beat-up. That's just not true. A Ripper witness, probably Lawende, was wheeled in to 'confront' Salder and said 'no'.

We would expect Mac not to mention this embarrassing detail -- and he doesn't.

The Aberconway rewrite from 1898 is a media-driven document.

It's purple prose had one purprose: to convince the two writers, Griffiths and Sims. It's an awkward juggle. Kosminski and Ostrog are major suspects -- except they are not. Druitt was the fiend alright -- except if he wasn't?

Macnaghten had to give the impression of an efficient police hunt which had not quite got to Druitt in time. That's why the unreliable 'fairly good' family seem to live with Druitt at Blackheath, yet only 'suspect' his guilt?! Mac is trying to have it both ways; that the 'police' knew, and yet didn't quite know -- but not our fault the swine avoided justice.

It worked.

In Griffiths' book the Ripper murders are excluded from the chapter on police failures. The Major also changed 'family' into 'friends' to avoid a libel suit, just as Macnaghten had already changed the 'son of a surgeon' into 'said to be a doctor', and then simply 'doctor', for the same reason.

To Phil Carter

In my opinion, Druitt and Kosminski were twin, too-late chief suspects. That is why there are two of them, favoured by different police chiefs. It is why Macnaghten carefully veiled this factor from first the Home Office [never sent] and then his literary cronies.

Whereas, Mac's memoirs admitted that the un-named Druitt was not a contemporaneous suspect, to the 1888 investigation -- exactly the opposite of what he claimed in the two versions of his slippery Report.


That is just a theory, but it is one I argue which makes sense of all the contradictory bits and pieces, without loose ends. Of course a new source could be unearthed, today, which torpedoes this paradigm ...

[Phil Carter]

Definitions and defining quotes.

Hello all,

In my opinion, the real value of these comments from the senior officials is shown in MacNaghten's line....

" "....although very many homocidal maniacs were at one time or another, suspected." (my emphasis in bold type)

Would somebody please explain to this writer the meaning of "very many", and where the "very many" are listed, or even noted at all?
That isn't just 3, it isn't 5..very many is upward of that..and these "very many" are all walking around the vicinity of Whitechapel. Err... why in blazes name, if they WERE Homocidal maniacs were they not locked up anyway?

And why, as they were SUSPECTS, isn't there any reference to any of them from the top brass themselves? According to what we know of the missing suspects file seen by the BBC, there aren't "very many" homocidal maniacs listed there either!

Druitt, Kosminski and Ostrog, the three listed, WERE NOT homocidal maniacs. Not one of them had committed murder. So they cannot be labled as such.Therefore they cannot be included in any list of "very many"

The definition of the word "homocidal" is, according to wikipedia

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/homicidal

"Of or pertaining to homicide, and particularly to one who commits such a crime as with a homicidal maniac"

Even princeton only list this meaningingful adjective as...

# S: (adj) homicidal, murderous (characteristic of or capable of or having a tendency toward killing another human being ) "a homicidal rage"; "murderous thugs"

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=homicidal

Here, the words "capable of" and "tendency toward killing another human being" are used.

Druitt? Ostrog? Kosminski? Tendency toward? Capable of?
I'm sorry, MacNaghten must have incredible intelligence and knowledge of psycologically imbalanced would-be murderers to be able to define and put these three into that catagory!

He continues...

"Personally, after much careful & deliberate consideration, I am inclined to exonerate the last 2, but I have always held strong opinion regarding No.1, and the more I think the matter over, the stronger do these opinions become. The truth, however, will never be known, and did indeed at one time lie at the bottom of the Thames if my conjections (sic) be correct."

He then lists Druitt, Kosminski and Ostrog.

Hang on a minute. First he says he is inclined to exonerate Kosminski and Ostrog, and opines towards Druitt, THEN says that "the TRUTH however, will never be known, and did indeed, at one time lie at the bottom of the Thames"

That means "the truth" isn't Druitt, Kosminski nor Ostrog.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

I agree with Trevor, that it is most unlikely for only the very top brass within the establishment of the police force to be within the know UNLESS the issue was mighty sensitive. The "secrecy" about a poor, Polish Jew lunatic just doesn't fit. Likewise Druitt, likewise Ostrog.

best wishes

Phil

[Trevor Marriott]

I am keeping up but having trouble seperating the wheat from the chaffe so far not much wheat to be found !

Thanks Caz, much appreciated.

Sorry to repeat myself yet again.

1. The person from whom Macnaghten probably learned about Montie Druitt is the Tory MP Henry Farquharson, in 1891. This line of argument can be found in two secondary sources; 'The West of England MP -- Identified' by Andrew Spallek, and 'The Man Who Hunted Jack the Ripper' by Evans and Connell.

"Probably" what sort of an answer is that and 3 years after the crimes ceased. You base all of your arguments on what someone probably said. We should only be interested in primary sources and then only with corroboration.

2. Ostrog's inclusion is a puzzle, for sure. I subscribe to the theory that Macnaghten put him there because he knew he was NOT the Ripper. He was a straw man, one in no position to sue, to make up a short list for the Liberal Home Sec. Macnaghten knew that to have just Druitt and Kosminski would look indecisive, or that there was a split at the top of CID -- which there was. But add a third 'unlikely' suspect and you have camouflage. Moreover, a suspect who combines features of Druitt and Kosminski: a foreign doctor. For that reason Ostrog is also a stand-in for a genuine contemporaneous 'unlikely' suspect and dodgy, foreign medico: Dr Tumblety. [an honest list would have been Tumblety, Pizer and Sadler -- but that was not Tory Macnaghten's potential agenda before a Liberal govt.]

Are you for real ?

3. Macnaghten began disseminating the un-named Druitt into the public domain in 1898 via his pal, crony, and fellow officer of state, Major Arthur Griffiths. In that account -- and in Sims' various writings from 1899 to 1917 -- the un-named Kosminski and the un-named Ostrog are written off. In Macnaghten's memoirs of 1914 they are not even bothered with even to debunk. There was only one chief suspect and he had been dead for years before Macnaghten discovered -- outside of normal police channels -- that Druitt was probably the Ripper.

Well the police were investigating the murders not someone outside of normal police channels. How would someone else know, and besides even if someone did come forward with any information those facts would have to be checked surely otherwise every undetcted crime would be open to abuse by writers.

If I had the time and the resources -- and I don't -- I would be scouring whatever primary sources have survived involving the Conservative Party from 1891 to 1894. To see if the sudden emergence, and then just as sudden submergence, of a 'Jack the Tory' scandal/tremor created by Farquharson/Druitt is reflected in any diaries, letters, internal party correspondence, and so on?

Well If you are going to keep championing your cause I am afraid thats what you need to do as you have come up very short with anything to substantiate any of your claims.

[Roy Corduroy]

We don't know for sure where Aaron Kozminski lived in the Autumn of 1888, but 34 Yalford Street is a possibility, and the other addresses we have for his family around that time are outside the area covered by the house-to-house search. So there's no particular reason to think his name would be in police notebooks.

Hi Chris, and thank you for your response. I tried to be extra careful in what I said, but apparently not specific enough. Quoting myself:

Because the family was local, the name Kosminski was in police notebooks from the inquiries in the area. I think we could safely say that.

Whether it be Yalford, Berner, Goulston or other addresses, there is every reason to think the name Kosminski was in the file. Not Aaron necessarily.

Roy

[The Good Michael]

Jonathan,

Thoughtful post.

Mike

[Jonathan H]

Thanks Caz, much appreciated.

Sorry to repeat myself yet again.

1. The person from whom Macnaghten probably learned about Montie Druitt is the Tory MP Henry Farquharson, in 1891. This line of argument can be found in two secondary sources; 'The West of England MP -- Identified' by Andrew Spallek, and 'The Man Who Hunted Jack the Ripper' by Evans and Connell.

2. Ostrog's inclusion is a puzzle, for sure. I subscribe to the theory that Macnaghten put him there because he knew he was NOT the Ripper. He was a straw man, one in no position to sue, to make up a short list for the Liberal Home Sec. Macnaghten knew that to have just Druitt and Kosminski would look indecisive, or that there was a split at the top of CID -- which there was. But add a third 'unlikely' suspect and you have camouflage. Moreover, a suspect who combines features of Druitt and Kosminski: a foreign doctor. For that reason Ostrog is also a stand-in for a genuine contemporaneous 'unlikely' suspect and dodgy, foreign medico: Dr Tumblety. [an honest list would have been Tumblety, Pizer and Sadler -- but that was not Tory Macnaghten's potential agenda before a Liberal govt.]

3. Macnaghten began disseminating the un-named Druitt into the public domain in 1898 via his pal, crony, and fellow officer of state, Major Arthur Griffiths. In that account -- and in Sims' various writings from 1899 to 1917 -- the un-named Kosminski and the un-named Ostrog are written off. In Macnaghten's memoirs of 1914 they are not even bothered with even to debunk. There was only one chief suspect and he had been dead for years before Macnaghten discovered -- outside of normal police channels -- that Druitt was probably the Ripper.


If I had the time and the resources -- and I don't -- I would be scouring whatever primary sources have survived involving the Conservative Party from 1891 to 1894. To see if the sudden emergence, and then just as sudden submergence, of a 'Jack the Tory' scandal/tremor created by Farquharson/Druitt is reflected in any diaries, letters, internal party correspondence, and so on?

[caz]

Well I and many others would be grateful if you tell us who that person was ?

You mean those who have not been paying the slightest attention to Jonathan's numerous and lengthy posts on the subject, Trev?

Jonathan has asked himself more questions and answered them all in more ways than you can evidently imagine. I'm sure he and many of us would be grateful if you could keep up.

Love,

Caz
X

[Trevor Marriott]

Chris makes a very good point about the Kosminski address(es) falling outside of the house search. Nevertheless, though admittedly very unreliable, Anderson n 1910 links that search with the un-named Kosminski. Perhaps it was just the ethnic profile which he linked, between a search which included a number of Polish Jews and Kosminski, a Polish Jew. That he darn well SHOULD have been on that list, in Anderson's fading memory.

Trevor, your take on Macnaghten as a desk jockey totally reliant on the investigative work of others is completely at odds with how everybody in the Victorian and Edwardian eras described him -- including Macnaghten.

Besides, sitting in your exclusive gentleman's club and having a 'quiet word' with an old school chum, now a blabbermouth politician, over a brandy and a cigar and listening to what he supposedly knows ['his doctrine'] about some long deceased Winchester/Oxonian Gentile gent -- who was supposedly the Fiend?! -- is hardly taxing work for a clubby insider.

That last para if anywhere near correct is nothing more than hearsay

Well I and many others would be grateful if you tell us who that person was ?

I can tell you now that any of those senior offices would not have gone out and done their own enquiries. You can offer no explanation as to how any of these senior officers supposdelyobtained the information they sought to rely on.

Furthemore you can offer no explantion as to how Otsrogg appears in the memo or where Macngatnen obtained all the content for the memo from. Dont forget he wasnt around at the time of the murders.

Ask yourselfanother question having regard to the fact that the memo was compiled as a result of the Sun newsapaper wanting to know what the police had done on the ripper enquiry. Would the suggestion that Druitt was a suspect have ever have got into the public domain at the time.

[Natalie Severn]

I, for one ,greatly appreciate the information,re the likely management of the case by the police hierarchy, that is provided by Trevor,and ofcourse Stewart Evans, both having had experience of years of Police procedure to base their conclusions upon.
However, I still believe that the evidence that Aaron Kosminski was not the ripper, and never could have been , is held in the Colney Hatch and Leavesdon Asylum records,brief though they are, of his 30 year stay there.
It is frankly inconceivable that a dangerous killer ,suffering from the paranoid form of schizophrenia , at that time -1891- 1919 when there were no anti psychotic drugs to control the illness would have had no record of such attacks.
To imagine that such a patient,ie one who had become a dangerous killer such as Jack the Ripper, would have been incarcerated for thirty years,with no warning information to accompany his hospital notes is absurd and ridiculous.
Ofcourse a young man of 25 would have been perceived as dangerous and unpredictable by hospital doctors for many years .Ofcourse there would have been warnings and advice about when and how to use the conventional restraints of Victorian and Edwardian mental institutions during episodes of paranoid psychosis,those restraints being what are still used today when such a psychosis is not under control from the anti psychotic drugs for any reason ie the use of straight jackets and isolation in padded cells.
And believe me, there would certainly have been traces of information about such episodes and what methods had been used to control the patient.
Myself I believe that although Aaron Kosminski may well have suffered from schizophrenia, it was not the dangerous paranoid form of that illness.Therefore he would not have been Jack the Ripper;therefore he would not have needed the traditional forms of "restraint" to control any difficult behaviour.
If anyone wants to get a picture of how a dangerous paranoid schizophrenic might behave when experiencing a psychotic attack,just read carefully that section of the book Martin Fido wrote on David Cohen, his preferred suspect.Here you will see the type of behaviour that a patient suffering from such episodes has----viz violent assaults on staff, furniture and other patients which David Cohen is recorded as having made, recorded that is by the same hospital staff,presumably, who had care of Aaron Kosminski a few years later at the very same institution, Colney Hatch.David Cohen"s notes also contain information I understand, of the restraints used by that institution to control him, in December 1888, when there were no drugs available to do the job-viz straight jackets and the padded cell, during the episodes of violent psychosis.

[Jonathan H]

Chris makes a very good point about the Kosminski address(es) falling outside of the house search. Nevertheless, though admittedly very unreliable, Anderson n 1910 links that search with the un-named Kosminski. Perhaps it was just the ethnic profile which he linked, between a search which included a number of Polish Jews and Kosminski, a Polish Jew. That he darn well SHOULD have been on that list, in Anderson's fading memory.

Trevor, your take on Macnaghten as a desk jockey totally reliant on the investigative work of others is completely at odds with how everybody in the Victorian and Edwardian eras described him -- including Macnaghten.

Besides, sitting in your exclusive gentleman's club and having a 'quiet word' with an old school chum, now a blabbermouth politician, over a brandy and a cigar and listening to what he supposedly knows ['his doctrine'] about some long deceased Winchester/Oxonian Gentile gent -- who was supposedly the Fiend?! -- is hardly taxing work for a clubby insider.

[Chris]

Because the family was local, the name Kosminski was in police notebooks from the inquiries in the area. I think we could safely say that.

We don't know for sure where Aaron Kozminski lived in the Autumn of 1888, but 34 Yalford Street is a possibility, and the other addresses we have for his family around that time are outside the area covered by the house-to-house search. So there's no particular reason to think his name would be in police notebooks.

[Trevor Marriott]

Oh good. I'm glad I know now. It's so nice to be set straight every now and then.

I wonder if I should buy your book?

No, maybe not.

Well I am sure i will not starve this week then due to missing out in your purchase. In any event the book is in the non fiction catergory. By your posts you seem to aspire to fiction only,

[Trevor Marriott]

Roy,

Certainly ythe undated Crawford Letter might be by a Kosminski, or near relative.

I think probably not as I subscribe to the theory that Kosmisnki coming into the frame in a major way post-dates his Feb 1891 incarceration.

So why bring such dangerous attention to the family then?

Also, it would mean a very, very bitter Anderson who converted a family member who was trying to be candid into 'certain' low-class Polish Jews who were hiding their member from Gentile Justice.

My conjecture is that Macnaghten found [an already incarcerated] Kosminski from the house to house list, which he reinvestigated in 1891. I think that he did checked out this list to prove that the Ripper was Druitt, and not anybody else -- not a local, foriegn, Jew. Mac thought, rightly or wrongly, that the Kosminski family's fears, or a member's fears, about Aaron were sincere but unfounded -- unlike the Druitts.

To Macnaghten's consternation, Anderson -- rightly or wrongly -- fastened onto this nothing suspect for the rest of his life, thus beginning, from 1895, this weird chief-suspect feud between the two police chiefs.

I think Anderson partly did this to muddy the waters, to forever deny Macnaghten the credit of finding the Ripper -- albeit posthumously.

Macnaghten or Anderson never did any actual physical investigating, officers of that high rank get others to do the work for them and is still the case today